Re: Destructive Lock Nuts Suck

On 4/14/2024 8:45 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 10:48:04 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
wrote:
 

On 4/14/2024 10:08 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 21:39:58 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
wrote:
>

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 18:16:20 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:
>

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 11:45:50 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
wrote:
>

On 4/13/2024 11:25 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
<muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
>

"Snag"  wrote in message news:uvcbh7$2jb8r$1@dont-email.me...
>
On 4/12/2024 5:01 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:

On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:36:58 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
wrote:
>
>
You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
Nut:
>
.<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>
>
Joe Gwinn
>

>
Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
Snag
>
------------------------------------
I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
lathe or drilled for safety wire.

>
The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard.  They simply don't
shake loose.  Finger tight causes noticeable locking.
>
Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
one another.  And Loctite don't hurt.  I recall from a study I read
that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
resistance.  Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
NASA study.
>
Joe Gwinn

>
Well, I didn't actually say that.

>
True, not those words, but this:
>
"Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer
deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had
left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."
>
Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
rolling truck tires are bad enough.  Bloodcurdling.
>
This would have terrified me for sure.
>
>

.... Just that two of the nuts came off
for no good reason.  I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers
with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure.  Afterwards it
made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up
through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show
Low.  There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep
inclines.  Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency
runaway pullouts.
>
This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts.  The
cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I
bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs.  Before
I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker.  As near as I can
tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have
stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them.  Two
of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily
into place (which surprised me).
>
These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap.  They were
just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could
find.
>
I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker.  I've used
Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
over the years.
>
I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions.  I just don't think its
necessary here.  I did look at your link and I can see places it would
be useful.

>
I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
Nuts are insignificant.
>
>
By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.
>
And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with
jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped).  Drake
Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
shake loose.  But this was before Loctite; this ought to work.  The
distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.
>
Joe

For suspension bolts I like flanged locknuts. NEVER split lock
washers!!.

>
Agree - they are useless, as are the star lock washers.
>
>

       A serated nut with attached serated washer (LoxNut) is the
cat's ass. WhizLock nuts are a close second - particularly when
installed with medium lock-tite.

>
Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff.  URL?
>
WhizNut did work, and it's only for cases where the thing being
clamped is a good bit softer than the nut.
<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/whiz-nuts/>
>
>

Fijilok nuts work very well on adjustable threaded linkage - better
than NyLok

>
Fijilok not found, buried under irrelevant stuff.
>
>

Flanged side distortion or top distortion nuts work well too -
particularly with medium lock-tite.

>
Do distorted nuts with loctite work better than plain nuts with
loctite?
>
>

If you MUST use lock washers, Nord-Lock or Disk-Lock. Either one
requires 50% more torque to remove than the install torque (torque
stud to 100 lb/ft and it takes 150 to break it loose)

>
>
Nord-Lock is very good.   <https://www.nord-lock.com/en-us/>
>
I had to look Disk-Lock up.  <https://www.sherex.com/>
>
It is the Nord-Lock system (whose patents must have expired by now),
cloned and maybe improved.  I would assume that it is also very good.
>
But I do think that while expensive, Drake Nuts are a whole lot
better.  But this is the right conversation to be having.
>
War story.  A family member was towing a boat trailer, but had not
attached the safety chains properly.  If that trailer came loose,
someone was going to die.  Whereupon I put my foot down and made him
use beefy threaded quick links.
>
<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/quick-links/>
>
So, I'd also consider adding some safety chains.
>
>
Joe Gwinn

>
Goose neck and straight pull trailers are required (DOT) to have safety
chains.  This one has 3/8 chains and screw couplers. The chains are kind
of a pain and in the way in the bed of a truck on a goose neck.  They
can even knock loose the electrical plug from the receptacle if one is
not careful.  Interestingly a fifth wheel does not require safety
chains.  More interestingly a clear definition of fifth wheel varies or
is unclear depending on where it is looked up.  Even in legislative
definitions.  Many are written in a manner that could include goose neck
hitches.  Where it becomes even less clear as to what is and is not a
"fifth wheel" is when looking up the legality of towing RV doubles from
state to state.
>
>
-- Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

  Isn't the difference the attatchment? Gooseneck uses a ball. (or
possibly a pintle) while a "fifth wheel" uses a pin and latch on a
"horseshoe plate"

That is the practical definition and perhaps the "dictionary" definition, but in the real world you have to deal with the legal definition.  Remember the law says a tomato is a vegetable even though taxonomically its a fruit,
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
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