Re: jewish emancipation also means emancipation from ancient rituals

On 12/22/2024 6:20 AM, Zionazi wrote:

On Sun, 22 Dec 2024 8:46:06 +0000, Frank Berger wrote:
 

On 12/12/2024 8:21 AM, Zionazi wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 7:58:05 +0000, Frank Berger wrote:
>

On 12/10/2024 4:32 AM, Zionazi wrote:
I have dark hair (well, gray now).  I don't consider blondes to be
disgusting, so we are even.

>
No we are not. If you don’t consider uncircumcised penises as disgusting
— we might be in some way.

>
Why on earth would I?  The Torah doesn't require Gentiles to be
circumcised.  Why would I be disgusted by something permitted by Jewish
law?

 Frank, I was obviously just making fun of your line of thought. You
started talking about the color of hair (which has nothing to do with
mutilating body parts) and then decided we were even - while we
obviously weren't.
 Since you're not disgusted by uncircumcised penises we are even I guess
;D
 Well, why should you be disgusted by something permitted by Jewish Law?
Hmmm... maybe because not everything about Judaism is actually
beautiful, there are a few things which are quite disgusting -- such as
mutilating the penises of infants, gambling with the health of your
offspring.
 I also find it digusting that in some cases (Metzitzah B'Peh) the mohel
sucks the blood of the penis of the baby.
 Jeez... why would I find such things digusting? ;D
 

You are entitled to be disgusted by anything. Consider the fact that millions of people disagree with you.

You see, you have to notice the barbarism not only in others, but also
yourself. Judaism is not free from barbarism.
 

Opinion.

Furthermore it seems, you don't really care about the goyim -- if you
really believe circumcisiom to be beneficial from medical perspective,
shouldn't you be promoting circumcision for gentiles as well?
 

I didn't say circumcision was medically beneficial. I said or implied, that you may be greatly exaggerating the risk for political purposes.

You see, I care as much about the Jews - other human beings in general -
as I care about myself. So, since it's quite obvious that circumcision
is unnecessary, I would hope the Jews to realize this one day, and stop
the butchery.
he

Some have. I have no idea what percentage of baby boy born to secular or reform Jews are circumcised.

>
  I still consider the Procedure as barbaric

and disgusting btw — as Long as it is Not done for medical reasons.
>

I really don't care about your personal opinion. Why should I?

Blonde or dark hair or gray hair is something Natural. Foreskin is sth
natural, cutting of the foreskin is Not Natural, it is barbaric.
>
Are You too brainwashed to understand this simple fact?
>

>
Yeah, I'm brainwashed, because I don't agree with you.

 Well if you consider cutting off healthy penile tissue to not be
barbaric, but a commandment of god, you are obviously brainwashed.
Furthermore you have a very screwed idea of god...
 

>

>

Sure I don’t think it‘s particularly good how Women are treated in some
orthodox circles, but they arent hated and treated as subhumans - and
the Women themselves seem to feel good about their lives. But ofc… some
more emancipation here would be welcomed by me (think about Einat Wilf —
an emancipated Jewress, free from things Holding her back from
developing her Potential).

>
Unfortunately for you, you don't get to define Jewish religious ritual.
Must be frustrating.

 Actually it's unfortunate for the Jews that I don't get to define Jewish
religious rituals ;)
 Must be kind of frustrating for the infants getting their dicks
mutilated with the consent of their parents.
 

>
>

>

If you want to be upset about something, why not consider sex
trafficking, drug cartels, genocide, etc. and leave the Jews alone?

>
There Are quite a few Jews who think like me — how about Frank, You
leave the dicks of Babies alone?
>
You don’t seem to realize that what I am saying makes Perfect sense —
instead you Act like an imbecile. How about thinking your Arguments
through.
>
I Care about a Lot of stuff, and if you hadn’t killfiled me, you might
have Seen This. Furthermore You should realize, it‘s not just About Jews
- you idiot -, it‘s about the practice of circumcision in General.
>

>
You've reverted to name-calling.  I guess you have nothing new to add.

 Oh, how could I call a guy who promotes the mutilation of infants'
penises an idiot?
 You are not only an idiot, but a human without much consideration for
the pain of others -- an absolute asshole.
 It's not that I didn't have anything new to add, it's that you ignored
all of my points. See, just like Herm doesn't care about the hostages in
Gaza, you and the rabbis don't give a shit about the people - also Jews
- who feel violated by this procedure and/or who suffered a botched
surgery and have problems functioning sexually.
 Apparently Frank and the Rabbis love to butcher the penises of people
for god ;D
 

>

You Are Behaving completely Moronic… You killfiled me for telling you
that you were an idiot in a discussion about antisemitism, yet still -
after all that has been said in this ng by specific people - you
communicated with antisemites in a friendly way — that is until 10/7
Happened and you seem to have realized that you were being an idiot
still being friendly to These „rabid dogs“ (Herm, Raydolf etc.).
>

I never communicated with Ray Hall in a friendly Way.  At least not for
years.

 Well you killfiled me, but you didn't killfile Raydolf or Herm - with
whom you have communicated in a friendly way after all that he had said.
You really do lack self-awareness, not too different from Hamas or Herm
or Dan ;)
 

>

You can thank me for Making This Place almost Antisemiten-rein, or at
least very uncomfortable for antisemites — You made This Place
comfortable for antisemites.
>

Bull.

 Truth.
 

>

In some ways I also feel that Hitler pushed Jews back into becoming more
orthodox (a way of coping and also from a jewish Perspective the Shoah
probably made Jews believe even more in the Torah.

>
I have read more than once (I can't provide a reference offhand) that,
contrary to what many believe, observant Jews who survived the Shoah,
mostly remained observant ("Its a miracle that I survived") and secular
Jews who survived tended to remain secular ("The can't be a God who
would let this happen."

>
After the Shoah the Chabad-movement (which I view in a positive light in
many ways), basically went on an international „Hunt“ to Draw Jews back
into Religion — Sure it‘s good to keep the Culture alive, but no genital
mutilation please.
>

Reminds me of those who claim they are not antisemitic, just
anti-Zionist.  They don't get to define Judaism and neither do you.

 ? I am not trying to define Judaism. Im trying to tell you that not
eveythign about Judaism is good. Unless you are brainwashed, you'd be
able to see this.
 

>
You See some Insane

orthodox Jews argue that this was god‘s will…

>
On the Orthodox assumption that God is omnipotent and omniscient,
anything that happens is effectively "God's will."  It can hardly be
otherwise.  Regarding God's third attribute, benevolence, a tragedy must
be "good," but we can hardly always, or even often, know why it was
"good, " or why is was part of God's plan.  Of course, if you tell
people who haven't thought of these things that the Shoah was good, they
will rightly be unimaginably offended and think you are a moron, or
worse.  Regarding rabbis who seem to routinely explain the reason for
eveything that happens, I think that they are outside the mainstream on
this. Does this mean a good Jew doesn't grieve if they spouse or child
dies?  You tell me.

>
I was just giving some examples where I think some emancipation would be
good.
>

Why should anyone care would you think about these things?

 You should care about the arguments I'm making. Obviously you have some
personal problems with me, similar to how antisemites have some problems
with Jews.
 Why should people listen to Rabbis who argue that the shoah was a
punishment from god for their sins? These rabbis are pissing all over
the people who were rape-murdered at the Nova-Festival -- I mean they
were sinning, weren't they?
 

>

Instead of imagining a god that loves the Jews, they Imagined a god that
hates them — this is what it almost feels like to me….
>
>
Kahane was right about many things, but he was also an idiot wrt many
things.
>

I only mentioned one thing.

 Well I was talking about Kahane, are you Kahane?
 

>

Good thing is, Ben-Gvir who follows his and Kook‘s footsteps seems to
actually believe in a secular state contrary to Kahane.
>
You will need to leave your past behind in some way to Progress… Jews
abandonging circumcision would be progression.
>

>
Then Kashrut, then Shabbos, then there is no more Judaism.  My father,
by the way who was not only secular, but pretty rabidly ant-religious,
would have thought this a good thing, or at least no great loss.

 Look, you don't need to become paranoid. I am being very reasonable and
very empathic actually. For the time being I don't consider it to be
benefical for Jews to leave their religion behind altogether, but
ultimately - speaking out of the perpective of emancipation - I wish for
this to become true one day -- not only for Jews, but Christians etc as
well.
 For the time being, abandoning circumcision and having a more
enlightened view on Judaism would be very nice I think.
 Things can't go on forever like this ;)
 Think about the many Jews who suffered botched surgeries thanks to
people like you promoting male genital mutilation... this can't go on
forever. Amen.
 You obviously don't give a shit about the suffering of other people --
all you care about is promoting further suffering. Still waiting for
Raydolf to talk about the israeli hsotages, just as I wait for you to
talk about the people who suffered botched circumcisions. But since you
are an absolute asshole, I can obviously wait forever - just liek I can
wait forever for Raydolf to condemn 10/7.
 Get this in your head Frank: You gambled with the well-being of your
son, because of superstition or false medical advice.