Re: jewish emancipation also means emancipation from ancient rituals

On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 7:58:05 +0000, Frank Berger wrote:

On 12/10/2024 4:32 AM, Zionazi wrote:

First of all I‘d like to Point out that I haven‘t Seen anything
particularly Worrying in Most of orthodox or reform Judaism except for
„circumcision“ (which is a euphemism for male genital mutilation — Note
that I consider female genital mutilation (as practiced by many Muslims
— even secretly in the West ;) ) quite a Bit more disturbing.

>
As one might, since it is a much more serious procedure (in more ways
than one).  Things are often not black and white. This is wrong and that
is not wrong, but there is a continuum between the extremes and each
person (or together, as a society) has to decide where the line is.
>
I also

Certainly things often arent black and white… gambling with the physical
well-being of humans in this manner is just black though - it is
completely unneccesary (unless done for medical reasons) yet You’re
taking the Risk.

don‘t consider circumcised penises as disgusting.).
>

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I have dark hair (well, gray now).  I don't consider blondes to be
disgusting, so we are even.

No we are not. If you don’t consider uncircumcised penises as disgusting
— we might be in some way. I still consider the Procedure as barbaric
and disgusting btw — as Long as it is Not done for medical reasons.
Blonde or dark hair or gray hair is something Natural. Foreskin is sth
natural, cutting of the foreskin is Not Natural, it is barbaric.
Are You too brainwashed to understand this simple fact?

>

Sure I don’t think it‘s particularly good how Women are treated in some
orthodox circles, but they arent hated and treated as subhumans - and
the Women themselves seem to feel good about their lives. But ofc… some
more emancipation here would be welcomed by me (think about Einat Wilf —
an emancipated Jewress, free from things Holding her back from
developing her Potential).
>

If you want to be upset about something, why not consider sex
trafficking, drug cartels, genocide, etc. and leave the Jews alone?

There Are quite a few Jews who think like me — how about Frank, You
leave the dicks of Babies alone?
You don’t seem to realize that what I am saying makes Perfect sense —
instead you Act like an imbecile. How about thinking your Arguments
through.
I Care about a Lot of stuff, and if you hadn’t killfiled me, you might
have Seen This. Furthermore You should realize, it‘s not just About Jews
- you idiot -, it‘s about the practice of circumcision in General.
You Are Behaving completely Moronic… You killfiled me for telling you
that you were an idiot in a discussion about antisemitism, yet still -
after all that has been said in this ng by specific people - you
communicated with antisemites in a friendly way — that is until 10/7
Happened and you seem to have realized that you were being an idiot
still being friendly to These „rabid dogs“ (Herm, Raydolf etc.).
You can thank me for Making This Place almost Antisemiten-rein, or at
least very uncomfortable for antisemites — You made This Place
comfortable for antisemites.

>

In some ways I also feel that Hitler pushed Jews back into becoming more
orthodox (a way of coping and also from a jewish Perspective the Shoah
probably made Jews believe even more in the Torah.

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I have read more than once (I can't provide a reference offhand) that,
contrary to what many believe, observant Jews who survived the Shoah,
mostly remained observant ("Its a miracle that I survived") and secular
Jews who survived tended to remain secular ("The can't be a God who
would let this happen."

After the Shoah the Chabad-movement (which I view in a positive light in
many ways), basically went on an international „Hunt“ to Draw Jews back
into Religion — Sure it‘s good to keep the Culture alive, but no genital
mutilation please.

>
You See some Insane

orthodox Jews argue that this was god‘s will…

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On the Orthodox assumption that God is omnipotent and omniscient,
anything that happens is effectively "God's will."  It can hardly be
otherwise.  Regarding God's third attribute, benevolence, a tragedy must
be "good," but we can hardly always, or even often, know why it was
"good, " or why is was part of God's plan.  Of course, if you tell
people who haven't thought of these things that the Shoah was good, they
will rightly be unimaginably offended and think you are a moron, or
worse.  Regarding rabbis who seem to routinely explain the reason for
eveything that happens, I think that they are outside the mainstream on
this. Does this mean a good Jew doesn't grieve if they spouse or child
dies?  You tell me.

I was just giving some examples where I think some emancipation would be
good.
Instead of imagining a god that loves the Jews, they Imagined a god that
hates them — this is what it almost feels like to me….

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  because Jews have strayed

Away from the Torah; just as Maimonides argued that God was punishing
Jews by hurling them into the midst of the arabs: „ Remember, my
co-religionists, that on account of the vast number of our sins, God has
hurled us in the midst of this people, the Arabs, who have persecuted us
severely, and passed baneful and discriminatory legislation against us,
as Scripture has forewarned us, "Our enemies themselves shall judge us"
(Deuteronomy 32:31). Never did a nation molest, degrade, debase and hate
us as much as they.“.

>

>
https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Epistle_to_Yemen/Complete#
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So You have Maimonides blaming Jews - lol - for how they were treated by
the arabs… so because Jews werent following the Torah god punished them
lol? Do they believe this was justified? Time to confront god (Like
Abraham did wrt Sodom and Gomorrha)… confronting god is jewish yo…
>
moishe Postone said the following:
>
„ They not only succeeded in murdering six million Jewish children,
women, and men. They succeeded in destroying a culture—a very old
culture—that of European Jewry. It was a culture characterized by a
tradition incorporating a complicated tension of particularity and
universality. This internal tension was duplicated as an external one,
characterizing the relation of the Jews with their Christian
surroundings. The Jews were never fully a part of the larger societies
in which they lived nor were they ever fully apart from those societies.
The results were frequently disastrous for the Jews. Sometimes they were
very fruitful. That field of tension became sedimented in most
individual Jews following the emancipation. The ultimate resolution of
this tension between the particular and the universal is, in the Jewish
tradition, a function of time, of history—the coming of the Messiah.
Perhaps, however, in the face of secularization and assimilation,
European Jewry would have given up that tension. Perhaps that culture
would have gradually disappeared as a living tradition, before the
resolution of the particular and the universal had been realized. This
question will never be answered.“
>

>
More likely, absent antisemitism, liberal Judaism would have
disappeared, but Orthdoxy would persist, though perhaps in smaller
numbers.  It is said that only 1/5 of the Egyptian Hebews actually left
Egypt - that the other 4/5 were hopelessly irredeemable. In "Why be
Jewish," by Meir Kahane, he describes and incident where to celebrate
the 100th anniversary of the Reform Temple Israel, they were going to
invite descendants of the founding families, but found none who
identified as Jewish. He considered liberal Judaism to be a way station
out of Judaism.

Kahane was right about many things, but he was also an idiot wrt many
things.
Good thing is, Ben-Gvir who follows his and Kook‘s footsteps seems to
actually believe in a secular state contrary to Kahane.
You will need to leave your past behind in some way to Progress… Jews
abandonging circumcision would be progression.
Israel is Not just the State of the Jews, but their only Weapon against
annihilation. It was Not bourgeois enlightenment, Communist utopia nor
the messiah that saved you — but pure weaponry. This is a Realist and
Materialist POV.
Becoming more Realist, while still being spiritually influenced by
Judaism is the way to Go Forward — not Kahane or Ben-Gvir Style,
although i like Ben-Gvir‘s politics in General.
Instead of following Kahane‘s Never again, just go Full-Adorno:
„Hitler has imposed a new categorical imperative upon humanity in the
state of their unfreedom: to arrange their thinking and conduct, so that
Auschwitz never repeats itself, so that nothing similar ever happen
again.“

>

https://libcom.org/article/anti-semitism-and-national-socialism-moishe-
postone
>
If the Germans hadnt gone nuts, the Jews might have emancipated
themselves from Religion with time… with Hitler they got pushed back
into it in some ways…

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  Not clear at all, but it is said that the Jews didn't make the
Sabbath. Rather the Sabbath made the Jews.

I was just imagining a history where the Enlightenment actually led to a
truly humane aka ‚communist‘ world…
It‘s not just Jews that need to be emancipated from their Religion (for
themselves), but also Christians, Buddhists etc  —  Most importantly
Muslims.
Marx thought that Religion offers people some solace in this wretched
world and that people would let Go Off it if capitalism had truly been
overcome — with Islam we can‘t wait…
In some ways Marx and what he Longs for is very jewish… just as Jews
Long for a true humane Society (olam haba), Marx also does… but he is
more realistic.