Re: Hostage deal

On 2/24/2025 6:07 AM, Zionazi wrote:

On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 6:34:51 +0000, Frank Berger wrote:
 

On 2/23/2025 5:52 AM, Zionazi wrote:

I can’t speak Hebrew, but according to Google translation „לֹא תִּרְצָח“
translates to „though shall not murder“. Same in German. Now you can
also Interpret This as „do Not murder“ — but there is a difference in
These two Phrases - in their meaning - to „You _must_ Not murder“.
>
In Judaism it is Not only okay to kill someone in certain situations,
but also to murder someone in certain situations.

>
By definition, it is not ok to murder.  Ever.

 The problem with you Frank, is that you're utterly brainwashed by
Judaism.
 Let me try to help you see things a little more clearly:
 According to the mosaic law capital punishment is for example to be
applied to idol worshippers (now you don't need to go into details here,
say that there would be a minimum of 23 Sanhedrin adjudicating in that
person's trial or whatever).
  From a secular perspective this would constitute murder, since the
person you are condemning to death is innocent from a secular
perspective. From a secular perspective this would constitute unlawful
killing, meaning murder (at least if the disinction you are making
between murder and killing, is that murder constitute "unlawful
killing").
  From a secular perspective there is nothing wrong with changing one's
faith, only from the mosaic law there is somethign wrong with that (*you
have been brainwashed Frank).
 This is similar to a ruling in Islam; in Islam there is a death penalty
for apostasy -- now Muslims who have been brainwashed by Islam (similar
to how you have been brainwashed by Judaism), would argue similarly to
you, saying that, since the death penalty is apparently sanctioned by
god, it would not constitute murder. But guess what... killing someone
for becoming atheist or changing one's religion constitutes murder from
a secular perspective.
 

>
  Seems Like You don’t

really understand the distinctions im Making Here. One distinction im
Making is between „You _shall_ Not murder“/„_do_ not murder“ and „You
_must_ not murder“
>

>
I think you are making up distinctions that don't exist. Just because
the English translations vary doesn't necessarily mean anything.  If you
want to talk sensibly from a Jewish perspective, you must consult Jewish
sources, not make stuff up.

 I am not making anything up; the correct translation according to Rabbis
is "though _shall_ not murder" -- now you can ask yourself, why god (as
if he was responsible for this nonsense called Torah), didn't write "You
_must_ not murder". There is a difference in meaning here.
 You seem to be incapable of understanding the issue here.
 

>

There is Capital punishment in Judaism, so obviously murdering someone
is allowed.

>
What are you talking about?  Executing someone in accordance with Jewish
law is not "murder."
>
>
If you imprison Eichmann — he‘s not a threat anymore — and

then Hang him, You’re murdering him (according to the Mosaic law,
Capital punishment is Applied to murderers — such as Eichmann).
>

>
The fact that Eichmann was executed doesn't have anything to do with
Jewish law. Israel is not a theocracy.  Did the Israeli government check
with Rabbis before executing Eichmann?  If they did, and the execution
was green lighted by them then the execution wasn't murder, again by
definition. If the execution violated some of the requirements of a
legal Jewish execution, then maybe you could call it murder (from a
Halachic point of view). Not from the point of view of the State,
though.

 When it comes to Eichmann, I was wrong - even from a secular Israeli
perspective this does not constitute murder (at least if you define
murder as "unlawful killing of an innocent person) -- he was neither
innocent, nor was it against the secular law of Israel. I actually
believe Rabbis would have condemned him to death as well.
  From my perspective - which might be wrong -; the difference between
murdering and killing is the following though - or at least that's how I
viewed it in my previous posts:
 Killing is if you are either in a war or have to defend yourself, or you
accidently drive someone over etc. -- you have no choice
 Murder is if the other person doesn't pose an immediate threat to you
anymore, but you still kill him. -- you have a choice
 

>
>

The Point Im trying to make is simple: Judaism allows murder, and the
commandment is just a General guideline — not a Prohibition to murder.
>

>
You are not making sense.

 I am, it's just that you've been utterly brainwashed by Judaism.
 

>

circumstances - self-defense (but not even always then), just wars,
etc., a few other instances. The requirements for capital punishment are
strict. It is traditionally believed that capital punishment was rare,
even in antiquity.

>
So You See, murder is allowed in Judaism.

>
Wrong.  Completely. Mind boggeling.

 No, from a secular perspective it is allowed, as I've illustrated.
 Putting the death penalty on an idol-worshipper (which is not a sin nor
any sort of problem from a secular perspective) is murder.

I totally agree that the distinction between murder and killing depends on one's perspective.