Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain

On 2025-05-02 12:03, Martin Brown wrote:

On 01/05/2025 18:41, Bill Sloman wrote:

On 2/05/2025 2:21 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>

On 30/04/2025 7:59 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>

... pumped hydro storage has the spinning
turbines, but grid scale batteries have invereters, which can reacta lot
faster than any spinning turbine,

>
I thought the stabilising effect of a spinning turbine was because it
*didn't* react quickly.
>
The grid frequency begins to fall so energy from the moving parts is
converted to electrical power which is fed into the grid to increase.
the frequency.  This results in a loss of stored mechanical energy which
causes the turbine to begin slowing down - which is detected by the
control system and used to feed more water/gas/steam into the turbine so
its speed is returned to normal.
>
The interface between the stored mechanical energy and the electrical
energy demand has an almost instant response and is inherently stable
without needing elaborate control algorithms.

>
But it isn't actually doing anything.

>
Yes it is, basic electrical engineering theory.
>
In effect it is a constant speed generator connected to variable load;
increase the load and more electrical energy immediately flows into the
load, taking mechanical energy from the inertia of the moving parts.
They then begin to slow down and the much more heavily damped mechanical
regulator feeds in more energy to them from the primary source.

>
So it is completely passive. A big battery isn't a primary source but it can provide enough DC current to let your grid scale inverter generate exactly the AC output that you need.

 There is a surprising amount of kinetic energy that can be stored in a flywheel or other rotating piece of big heavy machinery. The grid has adopted large scale solar PV and wind farms with some very flaky inverter technology whose interractions are not at all well understood.
 One of the internal reports I was reading recently mentioned that they were thinking about funding a PhD to look into some of the complexities. It is pretty clear that the system is not well thought out.
 

Why futz around with the rotating metal? It may entertain tourists, but that's really all that it is good for.

 Because it was always just there and now that it isn't the replacement inverters on many of the big installations are nowhere near good enough at simulating the required behaviour. They are too inclined to drop off and save themselves (much like nuclear plant also does). I suspect that Spain doesn't have a great deal of battery storage or pumped water.

Network grade batteries, none, I believe. There are plans for water pump/generators. Some of the islands do have them.
It seems that solar panels and wind farms mostly have the type of inverter that follow the shape of the voltage already in the grid, with detection to bail out if things go nuts. There is the suspicion that this was at least part of the problem.
But there is another type of inverters that force the shape, ie, simulate inertia.
And of course, large batteries on the network can be used to simulate very large inertia, much larger than mechanical generators. Minutes vs seconds, perhaps.

 Based on the time it went tits up it seems likely that it failed due to too much power being forced into the network and not enough load of last resort or exports to France down the one puny cable they do have.
 UK's intermittent loads of last resort are also diminishing as steel works closed although it is never really sunny enough here to matter and wind turbines can be easily feathered (and paid handsomely to do SFA). There is really only the chloralkali plants at Runcorn left now.
 Silly electricity prices based on the wholesale price for gas have pretty much destroyed aluminium and steel making in the UK. Scotland has a couple hanging on by their fingernails hoping for a reprieve.
 

--
Cheers, Carlos.