Re: Oscillator Distortion

On 17/10/2024 2:35 pm, Cursitor Doom wrote:

On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 13:35:14 +0100, piglet wrote:
 

On 17/10/2024 12:28 pm, Cursitor Doom wrote:

On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 11:33:52 +0100, piglet wrote:
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On 16/10/2024 3:20 pm, Cursitor Doom wrote:

On Tue, 15 Oct 2024 16:14:21 +0100, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
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Cursitor Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:
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On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:41:24 +0100, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
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Cursitor Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:
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On Sun, 13 Oct 2024 17:39:53 -0700, Dave Platt wrote:
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In article <veguu6$ofj1$3@dont-email.me>,
Cursitor Doom  <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:
>

I've found an issue with the principal oscillator. It's
generating distorted sine waves. It's a wien bridge type using
BJTs as the gain element and fine tungsten filaments as
thermistors, so should produce near perfect sine waves before
they're chopped and shaped by subsequent circuitry, but since
the fall, it's not.

>
Is there a chance that the impact broke one of those fine
tungsten filaments?  Do they read low-Z when cold, as they
should?

>
It's one thing I need to look at, if only for the sake of
completeness,
next time I have access to it. Since these are so hard to
replace,
I'd really rather deal with my original suspicion that something
got shorted out in the fall.

>
Could a pre-set pot have gone open circuit?

>
I don't think so. TH2 on the schematic appears to have gone open
circuit. Those filaments are pretty fragile! Not sure what they've
used - looks like one of those old dashboard bulbs you see in old
cars. I won't be able to find a direct replacement, but I do have
some spare thermistors from other wein-bridge test gear I've
plundered over the years which I dare say could be pressed into
service with a little teak of the biasing. I might even experiment
with some small filament bulbs which are not part of the WB variety
just out of curiosity.

>
The circuit, is pretty similar to the Venner TSA 625/2, which was
sold as a standalone general purpose oscillator - one of which I
have in pieces on the desk in front of me.  The thermistor (which is
TH1 in this circuit but more likely to be TH2 in yours) looks like a
glass tube, about the size of a DM70 valve (for those who remember
them), with two flying leads.  It is supported in a plastic clip.
>
The interior has a pinch with two substantial, longish support
wires. Joining the ends of the support wires there is a very fragile
wire and suspended by that wire is the thermistor bead.  The idea is
that the glass tube is evacuated and there is very little thermal
conductivity along the support wires, so the bead is free to
self-heat with only a few milliwatts of power.
>
If yours is like this, you cannot replace it with a light bulb as
the characteristics will be completely different.  The resistance
drops as it heats up, where the resistance of a light bulb rises.
The good news is that these are still made (or were until very
recently) and you may find the type number of the exact part you
need in the parts list for the instrument.
>
My guess is that TH1 in your circuit is a slow-acting thermistor
that compensates for thermal effects in the transistor biassing and
it may look like a black resistor or a small tablet of carborundum
mounted on the board with ordinary component lead-out wires.

>
This one's the TSA628. I have the service manual for it, but it only
quotes Venner part numbers for all devices listed and "R23" for the
type/ value of this thermistor. I don't think either of those numbers
would be of much use today. TH1 is "Type R52" so while they appear
identical, it seems they aren't.
TH1 and TH2 both *appear* identical: glass encapsulations about an
inch long by 3/8 wide at a guess. They're juxtaposed together on the
board. I'm guessing - it is only a guess - that TH2 (the failed one)
functioned as some sort of AGC to stabilise the amplitude of the
oscillator and the TH1 was the actual Wein-Bridge element as is
commonly understood in this type of oscillator. That would account
for why - as Phil Hobbs observed - the gain has gone up enough to run
the output into the supply rails and give rise to the distortion I'm
seeing.

>
>
My guess is type R23 is 2kohm at room temp (the R53/RA53 beloved by
hobbyists in the 1960s/70s was 5k). eBay probably has some close
enough (1.5k to 3.3k at room temp?) replacements.
>
This link might help you:
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<https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2gqn85dagr60qo0k8fm25/

Old_STC_Thermistors.pdf?

rlkey=jozht29aj1u6ocxnmw8okedrq&st=ohzxz0mw&raw=1>

>
piglet

>
Thanks for the info, Erich; much useful info in that datasheet.
Nothing showing up on Ebay at the moment, but I'm making enquiries of
vintage parts sellers which hopefully might bear some fruit. Failing
that I'll just have to build a new oscillator stage from scratch using
a spare vacuum thermistor from my parts bin.

>
I saw a seller with Littelfuse GL202F9J which might do electrically if
maybe a bit slow thermally? That part is also available from Mouser.
>
piglet

 According to the datasheet, this device boasts "a fast thermal response
time" but doesn't quantify that. It could do the trick with a bit of bias
tweaking.

That part is intended for temp measurement rather than self heated regulation so will be slower than the well isolated original R23 part - I expect it would work OK but you'd notice a longer amplitude bounce settling time after each change of frequency.
piglet