Re: Phase or frequency modulation?

On Tue, 8 Jul 2025 08:50:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
>

On Mon, 7 Jul 2025 19:06:07 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
 

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
>

On Mon, 7 Jul 2025 18:28:20 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
 

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
>

On Mon, 07 Jul 2025 08:07:32 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:
 

On Mon, 7 Jul 2025 15:04:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
>

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
>

On Mon, 7 Jul 2025 08:44:41 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
 

I have been checking the performance of a variable-reactance
type of frequency modulator which 'pulls' a crystal oscillator.
After multiplication and mixing, the signal appears at 145
Mc/s.
>
Listening to this signal on an Icom 706 MkII transceiver I found
it was barely intelligible, with severe high frequency cut.  At
first I suspected my modulator but I checked the audio output of
the Icom with a good-quality signal generator and found the
response was:
>
200c/s : -3dB
400c/s :  0dB
750c/s : -3dB
1 Kc/s : -6dB
1k5    : -10dB
2k0    : -13dB
2k5    : -16dB
3k0    : -18dB
>
(Using the wideband FM setting of the Icom produced similar
results, so the limitation was in the detector/A.F. stages, not in
the I.F. filter) This looks as though EITHER a 6dB per octave
response is being imposed on the output of the FM detector OR the
detector is expecting phase modulation.
>
The handbook for the Icom refers throughout to frequency
modulation and does not mention phase modulation.  Most references
to modulation in the 2-metre band (144-146 Mc/s in the U.K.)
mention frequency modulation and the use of phase modulation would
cause 'splash' into adjacent channels at higher audio frequencies
because of the rising characteristic.
>
Has my Icom been designed for a market where phase modulation is
the norm or is there another explantion?

 
Is your "crystal oscillator" a packaged VCXO?

>
No
>

They generally lowpass the frequency control input, the varactor
thing, pretty hard.

>
The circuits are at:
http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/Radio/G8HEH/2metretransceiver.htm
>
The crystal oscillator is a modified Colpitts with the reactance
valve tapping the signal off the cathode of the oscillator through
a 90-degree phase-shift network consisting of a choke and the
cathode resistor of the reactance valve (which also carries the
oscillator cathode current).
>
As the gain of the reactance valve is varied by the audio signal
on its grid, a variable amount of 90-degree phase-shifted signal
is fed into the crystal oscillator frequency trimming inductor in
the anode circuit of the reactance valve.
>
The RC time constant in the grid circuit is 3dB down at 3.4 Kc/s.  I
have tried removing most of the top-cut capacitors between the audio
clipper and the input to the modulator but this made little difference
as all those time constants took effect above 3 Kc/s.
>

 
If your rig is all tubes, probably not. But I suspect the rolloff is
in the transmitter, not the receiver.

>
The initial tests were done with the experimental transmitter but
the audio response figures of the Icom were taken with a Marconi
TF 2016A signal generator.  This has an internal meter which
allows the modulation level to be accurately set and monitored.
The audio source was a Solartron CO 546 Wein-bridge oscillator
which is stable to + or - 0.1 dB.
>
The sig-gen tests confirmed what my ears were already telling me.

>
47K and 1 nF (plus some strays) has a corner frequency of around 3
KHz.

 
Why not measure the FM and see who the bad guy is?

>
The FM was coming from a high quality signal generator, I have no reason
to suppose it was causing such a bad frequency response.

 
I meant measure the actual FM from your crystal oscillator.

>
I have no way of making those measurement other than with a VHF
receiver.

 
Use a receiver in CW mode. That will heterodyne the FM down and zoom
up the deviation. Then look at the result on a scope to see the period
variation.
 
A decent digital scope should display FM deviation directly.

>
I only have analogue equipment and the test with a signal generator has
already told me what is going on.  When I have the modulator working, I
can easily check for unwanted harmonics by listening on the two adjacent
channels.

You should get a digital color oscilloscope. They are cheap and
fabulous.

I had analog scopes since I was about 8 years old, but I'd never use
one again.