See this from Chabad, how blatant it is. This is open rebellion against
HKB'H. Quote ([...] added to avoid dishonest attempts at copyright
claims or whatever tricks of the day to destroy a debate they will
loose. Not that anyone cares about Usenet it seems, but you never know.)
I thought it is good to show how bad it is, and have that on the record
here.
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/744013/jewish/Can-I-collect-debts-after-a-Shemitah-year.htm Question:
I am owed money by Jews for goods and services [...] Will these debts
be canceled by Shemitah?
Answer:
If a Jew has an outstanding loan to another Jew, then at the end of the
seventh year, the Shemitah year, that debt is canceled. In the times of
Hillel the Elder, this cancellation of debts had become self-defeating:
In the seventh year, it became next to impossible to secure a loan,
because most lenders refrained from lending money, knowing that they
wouldn’t get their money back.
In response to this fiscal belt-tightening of the wealthy, Hillel and
the supreme court of the time devised a legal procedure, known as the
pruzbul, to ensure that the needy would still be able to procure needed
funds. In a pruzbul, a person simply turns over all of his outstanding
loans to the court (beit din) for collection on his behalf. Since the
Shemitah does not cancel loans owed to the court, the debt remains
collectible. (Read more about the pruzbul in this article.)
In your situation, you also need a pruzbul, since the money owed is
deemed to be a loan.1
You should therefore make a verbal pruzbul when you perform the annulment
of vows in synagogue, on the morning before Rosh Hashanah. You just
declare, “I hereby transfer to you [the court] all my debts, in order
that I may collect them from you at any time that I want.”
(See here for info about the annulment of vows.)
Normally, the pruzbul is done at the beginning of the Shemitah year. Some,
do it also on the last day of the year (see the pruzbul article linked
above for more on this). However, after the fact, doing it just at the
end of the year works, too.2
[...]
End quote. Name removed, because it may become Loshon Hora to attribute
this to someone, who hopefully in the future will do Teshuvah for these
lies, and then no longer is guilty over these crimes.
Shocking, unbelievable, unacceptable, there are no words for this.
Nothing needs to be said about this. Counter arguments are not
necessary. You have to be dumb like a rock to think this is acceptable.
The Torah expressly forbids the rich from withholding their money near
the 7th year. It doessn't matter a thing what the rich thing, or want.
The court is there to fdorce these evil greedy people to their duties,
or it is PUNISHMENT TIME. How about banishment for life ? How about we
take *everything you own* and give it to the poor ? Probaly it is wise
to ramp up the punishment bit by bit.
Does it remind you of something ? It should ! It should remind you of
the exile itself, which these people have caused and are perpetuating.
Shocking, unbelievable, unacceptable. Nobody is this stupid. This is
Chabad ! They call themselves Orthodox ?! What a joke.
As God said: you will become the butt of jokes. There you go, God is
right, Israel is wrong, as always and as usual.
You are surprise you are going into the meat grinder, Israel ? You are
surprised that anti-semitism is on the rise ? You don't understand why ?
Apparently you don't care whatsoever about your Torah, or what Moshe
Rabbeinu and the prophets have told you. You know better, right ?!
What a joke, what a shame, what a disgrace, what a bunch of babies.
These are legal scholars, judges ?! A child does better than this.
You tore up the Covenant, the deal, with your God, Israel. I strongly
suggest you don't even argue against it, because all your words may be
seen as more lies on top of more lies, just making it worse for
yourselves.
Shocking, absolutely shocking. These people has no future. If you cannot
figure this out and be honest, you can figure out exactly nothing.
Even the Shulchan Aruch says that there have been the harshest warnings
against your money law breaking, but you deceptively and fraudulently
pretend to "listen to the majority of the sages", conveniently ignoring
the fact that anyone who takes the prozbul as anything other than a
criminal offense on its own is not only NOT a "sage", but either a
criminal under the Torah, or a detractor from the Torah (an enemy), or
more likely, both.
There is no Geulah, Redemption, for this kind of people. There is exile
and punishment, and possible extenction at the end. This is the path you
chose for yourselves, the road to death. The road of abusing people,
breaking the law you had been given. The misery and even death you may
have caused with your prozbul (people can be so poor, that a little less
money still and it tips them over the edge into death), is now going to
fall upon yourselves.
Fortunately though, Chabad and Israel also do a lot of good. I hope for
you that it will offset these lies, but the fact remains: you have let
yourselves be known as dishonest, as liars and as greedy bastards with
this, and no matter what good you do, you also did this, like a bad
stain on otherwise decent clothes.
Simply incomprehensible. There is no debate or talk after this. It is a
simple matter of: slam the door in your face hard, until you repent from
your lying which you damned well know you are lying. Nothing more to
say. You chose misery and death for others who had been given rights,
and now you will suffer *their fate* yourself, as your God has slammed
the door into your faces and is demanding the debts from you without
a chance for atonement, just as you deny the poor the cancellation of
their debts.
You took the rights and the money of the poor away, by law, you
pretended that to be law. Now your God has done with you according to
Justice, because you could attone for your evil by giving sacrifices to
the Temple, but the Temple has been taken away from you. Now you can
also not nullify your debts anymore.
You see how your God is justice ? You see how you are a FOOL ? Can you
absorb that, that you are a fool ? Can you acknowledge that now ? If
not, you have a pride problem as well, which prevents you from returning
to the law. In the end, it may all mean together, that you don't
belong, even that you are the enemy of Israel itself.
You think I talk harsh ? It's just talk to help you. I'm not the one who
actually will slam any doors in your face, or do worse things to you.
However, there are people who will, and you are among them, the way you
slammed the door in the face of the poor, stealing their money and their
rights away, even though your God gave you everything you needed both
for yourself and for others ! The rich no less, the rich ! It literally
said so in the article, the rich don't want to part with their money !
I'll always be nice to you, even when it is upsetting how you are lying.
It's the world in general who punishes you. Heaven brings to power your
enemies, and they do with you as you did with your victims, so that you
might learn. Even that is for your benefit, but you don't see it. A
fool, deaf and blind, a rebel against the Torah, believing themselves to
be loyalists, to be the righteous few !
Outrageous and shocking ! I'm at a loss for words, I can't believe it. A
world of idiots, now with nuclear bombs and artificial intelligence
controlled robots of any kind you can imagine, weapons which alter the
very coding of life in the cells of your body while you are still alive
... What could go wrong, eh ?!
Oh wait, what's that noise ? Chabad is having another party ! Of course,
let the wine flow, drink another bottle, at least 4 on 'Moshiach day',
make sure you end it drunk and swimming in your own vomit. "It's the
Torah !"
What a joke. A joke of a world. So many things still go right, so much
hard work is done on Earth, so many special things are created with
precision and care. Who can make a car or a modern house by himself, let
alone an airplane or generate electricity for millions of people,
straight to their house. So much hard work, so many people doing their
jobs. The one thing they can't figure out though, is how to be honest.
How to establish a functioning stable economy and State. Caring for
someone else seems to be harder than blasting ultra complicated
satalites into orbit, build nuclear bombs big enough to end humanity, or
sail under the icecap in a massive submarine. Anything they can do,
nothing is too complicated, nothing is too much work, except being
honest and caring for other people, establish the peace, stop being
greedy, care for Justice, destroy the criminals. Basic things which even
in the Stone age may already have been practiced and where possible, so
how much more are they possible today.
I guess it all basically has one logic: so long as the money is coming
in, they act, they are motivated, nothing is too difficult. If however
they need to give something, care for the common peace seriously,
suddenly out of the throngs screaming to get ahead, the field drains out
and of the millions there before, one, two, five people remain.
The irony is, all the wealth, all the profit, everything, all the
happiness, all the gains, it is all contained within Justice and Peace,
because without it, you will all live together on a burning pile of
rubble, or worse under the siege of a Tyranny even Hollywood couldn't
make a film about it yet, because it is so horrible and alien that we
basically couldn't relate to the story. Not so ? Imagine describing New
York City to someone 500 years ago, and they will just walk away
shacking their head. Not a clue what you where saying, it just doesn't
make any sense whatsoever. Technology speeds up usually, which means
that in 500 years, there could be *more* changes than have happened in
the past 500 years. There won't be a big war in 500 years ? There won't
be a major Tyranny, or ten, or a hundred ? What does that mean ?
Stop lying, and seek the peace, or you will likely loose everything,
just like the Jewish people lost everything due to their greed.
They even *know* they where greedy, and that this destroyed them, and
still they go on with it ! Can you believe it ?! You tell them over and
over to stop lying, and what happens ? They just pretend not to notice,
"problem solved", "our honor protected" and "no fuss no drama". Money
coming in, standing in the community, being a Rabbi is a wonderful
carreer.
If the time is up, and the rage in heaven boils over once again, as your
God has said many times in the Torah, then you will live to regret, or
if you don't learn and realize, you will just be in misery without
knowing why, or pretending not to understand for the sake of your pride.
If you still read this (wow, that also sounds kindof crazy, lol), if you
could stomach all this, maybe you are one who can be apart from this
mess, be a "holy people" for your God. Then be apart from the liars and
do better. Keep the Shabbos to the end, as your Prophets told you.
Hopefully HKB'H will protect you, while the hammer comes down on all
around you, on the guilty ones. If you also have to die, though, at
least you can die with fewer regrets, and to greater honor. May the world
sing for you: this one should live, he is good, he is loyal, he is our
friend, write his name in the book of life, we want to see him again,
many times, the fruits of his life are happiness for those around, the
poor he lifted up, the arrogant he talked down to their senses, he
fought for the truth, make his legs strong, his mind at ease, give him a
wife and children, for him we exist like he exists for us, and so we are
one !
(Why do I still try ... it must be a disease at this point ;-). More
rain and nothing else to do, I suppose.
Come on Israel, I'm not really angry with you, but when I read these
lies ... I cannot deal with the lies. The in-your-face lies, ... I
better cut this here because I start all over again.
To the point of the question all above: it all depends on if those
people did not pay because they where too poor, as far as I understand
it. If the money was owed by rich Jewish people, they have no right to
withhold you payment, in my opinion. The matter should be resolved
before the Shmittah, or say for practical reasons the court case should
be started as soon as possible, if necessary, so that their means can be
adequately investigated. I don't understand why that was not part of the
response, since it wasn't mentioned if the other party who refused pay
was poor or not. I could be wrong, but it seems to me the nullification
is for the poor, and that's it (if I recall). If they have the wealth,
they must pay their debt.
In my opinion however: if they do not have the wealth, and the debt is
nullified (and anyone who comes up with prozbul lies gets additional
fines or other punishments for attempted fraud, because the prozbul
itself is a well known fraud at this point), but they later regain the
wealth needed to pay after all, they are not allowed to pay it. The debt
has been nullified. So had said your God, who took you out of Egypt, and
that's that. Deal with it. The moment has passed.
I am in favor of an interpretation of the law, which says in this case
that the poor man's loan was nullified but then he chanced on a fortune
or other wealth for some reason, that the person may never repay the loan
to the original creditor, *but* he may and perhaps should be encouraged
to himself make a loan to the poor, and himself now engage in debt
nullification there where it is applicable, or he could also give
charity, but not to the person who gave the original loan.
The reason is that if he repays the loan anyway, he is going against the
debt nullification law (obviously), he undoes that which has been done,
and he creates an atmosphere where debts get paid back after the Shmittah
anyway, even for those whose loans have been nullified. This mechanism
of paying it back may look cute and honorable if one person does it for
the first time, but later on it can become a social pressure. The greedy
creditors keep their greedy eyes on the poor whom they have given loans,
to see if they not gain wealth which they can later fleece from them,
claiming it is honorable to repay the loan after the Shmittah even
though it had already been cancelled. This greed is bad, and it also
keeps the poor in the dirt, in their poverty, because once they gain a
little footing and some wealth, or even a lot, the vultures around them
descend on it for reason of their past poverty. This is the wrong
effect.
What should have happened is that the now richer poor person, is
grateful for all the help he has been given, and now tries to adopt a
generous attitude himself from the other side position of being perhaps
even rich. Now he is benefitting others, and the rich who gave him the
loans now nullified and forever unpaid (owned by HKB'H now, sacrificed
for HKB'H), can look at it all and congratulate themselves with the good
they have done, as they have brought to his legs a man of honor and
integrity, a man who keeps the people standing, a man who deserved it,
and a man who may when times change be there to help them in the way
they have helped him. Thus all becomes good, the people are united, and
they live in peace and happiness, building their characters and the
depth of their lives every day.
This is what you threw away Israel. Has the sock with coins under your
pillow been worth it, to loose everything, including a much larger
amount of wealth which you would otherwise likely have enjoyed ? Oh but
you are rich now ?! You just sit there and wait a little, and then we
shall see what your wealth is worth. You are sellouts, you betrayed the
poor and your law, and you are fools. Insulting ? Damn right insulting.
I guess you need it. How did you make the poor feel, when you took their
money, even though you had no right to it. Insulting ? I think so. Keep
the servants low, right ? Keep them poor, it makes them work harder.
Happy with your tricks now ?
Look at Italy, what did their great Empire gain them. They are a crime
riddled island, one of the worst in all of Europe. They have been
greedy, and now their wealth is taken away from them by the same
violence as how they took it from all over the then known world,
including Israel for that matter. How are they ever going to rid
themselves of their organized Mafias ? Was their greed worth it, if this
is their punishment ?
Similarly for you. You destroyed yourselves, with your greed, and now
you are on the run, and sometimes you cannot even bring all your clothes
into your hide out, let alone your houses and wealth, besides a sack of
coins. Even the gold in your tooth they eventually took from you, after
they took your lives. You where left with nothing, not even with life.
Has it been worth it, to steal from the poor, for either of you, Italy
and Israel ?
Italy has its religion, they think they are charitable and good, and so
do you. I suppose a fair amount of charity is done, in both cases. Yet,
Israel is in exile, wars ragave the area, death on a greater scale
looms, and also in Italy, the crime is not letting up either. Something
is not working out. What could it be ?
I fear one day in the coming years, or perhaps after 10-25 years from now,
someone will read this, a Jew who lost everyone they loved so much, and
it is just tears streaming down their face until they cannot even read
anymore, just bow their head crying to the table, crying crying crying.
Why Israel, why did you do it, why have you been so dishonest, why do
you not answer. Why do you not answer in time, why do you not follow the
way you have been given, the way of the truth and the peace. Why do you
do all the misery to yourselves, and then you pretend it wasn't you. It
wasn't you, but you opened the gates to the enemy, and you behaved like
the enemy as well to your own people, and it all went down from there
for all of you.
Return then Israel, return and live. Today. Not in 10-25 years, but
right now, today.
P.S. It seems Chabad didn't post my answer to their other loan question,
even though I think it wasn't that bad. Maybe they didn't get
around it, who knows. Another missed opportunity, I guess.
-- Economic & political ideology, worked out into Constitutional models,with a multi-facetted implementation plan. http://market.socialism.nl
Prozbul: Israel is right at home in the exile, where their lies belong.