Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!

Liste des GroupesRevenir à t origins 
Sujet : Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!
De : b.schafer (at) *nospam* ed.ac.uk (Burkhard)
Groupes : talk.origins
Date : 22. Mar 2024, 14:12:51
Autres entêtes
Organisation : novaBBS
Message-ID : <ca0574223b7b6d1fd5e532bd406b5996@www.novabbs.com>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
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Ron Dean wrote:

Mark Isaak wrote:
On 3/20/24 10:12 AM, Ron Dean wrote:
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 3/19/24 9:13 AM, Ron Dean wrote:
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 3/17/24 4:25 PM, Ron Dean wrote:
 > [...]
The most vexing problem I have with evolution is the dogma of a blind, random, unguided process.
>
Perhaps you will feel better, then, knowing that every evolutionist also has a vexing problem with evolution as a dogma of a blind, random, unguided process.  (In their case, the vexation typically comes from knowing that other people mistake evolution for that.)
>
I'm an engineer. In engineering we never see this, there no chance that a complex program can undergo random changes without dire consequence. There might possibly be on rare occasion where an unguided change might have no effect. Engineering starts out with an objective or goal,  so must evolution. If there's no goal, then what distinguishes a beneficial mutation from a bad mutation. Survival one might say? But no! offspring with bad mutations can do frequently survive, protected by the mother. And they can have offspring; only the worst die out.
>
Your "I'm an engineer" comment sounds like an ecologist specializing in whale migrations glancing at a paper on fern genetics and commenting, "I'm a biologist. In biology we never see this."
>
Take a few years to study evolution algorithms.  There is an entire field of engineering dedicated to the study and utilization of what you say does not exist.
>
The members that usually survival depends largely upon luck, surviving to adulthood without being eaten by other beast while at rest or asleep at night and living long enough to reproduce is real. The fittest is in reality survival of the luckiest. In other cases massive numbers of eggs are laid. Sea turtles for example, lay eggs by thousands and they hatch and rush forwards into the sea, except for the large numbers that become food for birds and other animals. Another consideration is the fact that each cell has it's own DNA proofreading and repair systems, a defective cell can repair itself or it is destroyed.
>
Another vexing issue for me is the will to survive. In the case of the turtles, it's as if they _know_ they are in danger, and seek the protection of the sea. How do the know. Instinct where did instinct come from. Going back the first living cell. What was the impetuous of dead inorganic chemicals to created a living cell. Did the first living cell have the will to survive? Where did this will come from?
>
Have you thought of publishing your doubts in a scientific venue? Probably not, maybe because if you have an ounce of sense you would realize that your points have been raised and satisfactorily answered long ago, probably within a couple months of when _Origins_ was published.  But more likely because your unshakeable conviction that everyone who disagrees with you is a dogmatist makes you think it doesn't matter to you what the scientists say in any case.
>
You just pass over everything without any explanation. You cannot fault the implied message, so what do you do: you shoot the messenger. Which is about the only thing I ever get from you!
>
You have shown repeatedly that you have no interest in answers to your challenges, so why should I waste my time?  If you really want answers, prove it.
 >
I do respond to answers, but the answers, but all to often what I see, is something like, "it's been explained to you over and over  repeatedly and you just ignore. Or go to a library for the answer. Or finally someone will give an opinion without proof.
 Like you responded to my pointing out the engineering field of evolutionary algorithms?
 
I'm sorry I don't have the time to read or to respond to every post directed to me. I still have to earn my salary.
And that would be fine if you didn't also complain frequently
 that your questions are not answered, or that certain issues
are not discussed but swept under the carpet etc. Because
claims like this would require to read the actual posts made
in reply to you

  I don't know what you are asking for. I understand that the _concept_ of evolution or evolutionary algorithms has been used in computer programming(s) leading in the direction of Artificial Intelligence AI. There are so many fields of engineering, so no one can know about everything or everything about anything. Few things change and advances as rapidly as certain fields of engineering, especially electronics.

Date Sujet#  Auteur
13 Mar 24 * Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!142Ron Dean
13 Mar 24 `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!141jillery
14 Mar 24  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!140Ron Dean
15 Mar 24   `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!139jillery
17 Mar 24    `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!138Ron Dean
17 Mar 24     +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!22erik simpson
17 Mar 24     i`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!21Dexter
18 Mar 24     i `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!20Ron Dean
18 Mar 24     i  +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!6John Harshman
18 Mar 24     i  i+- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Kerr-Mudd, John
18 Mar 24     i  i`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!4Ron Dean
18 Mar 24     i  i +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Kerr-Mudd, John
18 Mar 24     i  i i`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1J. J. Lodder
18 Mar 24     i  i `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1John Harshman
18 Mar 24     i  +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!8jillery
18 Mar 24     i  i+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!6erik simpson
18 Mar 24     i  ii+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!4Bob Casanova
18 Mar 24     i  iii+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Athel Cornish-Bowden
19 Mar 24     i  iiii`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Bob Casanova
20 Mar 24     i  iii`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1JTEM
20 Mar 24     i  ii`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1jillery
18 Mar 24     i  i`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ron Dean
19 Mar 24     i  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!5Dexter
19 Mar 24     i   `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!4Ron Dean
20 Mar 24     i    `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!3jillery
20 Mar 24     i     `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Ron Dean
21 Mar 24     i      `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1jillery
17 Mar 24     +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!28Ernest Major
18 Mar 24     i`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!27Ron Dean
18 Mar 24     i +- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Vincent Maycock
18 Mar 24     i +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!10jillery
18 Mar 24     i i`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!9Ron Dean
20 Mar 24     i i `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!8jillery
20 Mar 24     i i  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!7Ron Dean
20 Mar 24     i i   +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Kerr-Mudd, John
21 Mar 24     i i   i`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ron Dean
21 Mar 24     i i   +- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1jillery
21 Mar 24     i i   +- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Mark Isaak
22 Mar 24     i i   `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Burkhard
23 Mar 24     i i    `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ron Dean
19 Mar 24     i `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!15Mark Isaak
19 Mar 24     i  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!14Ron Dean
19 Mar 24     i   +- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ernest Major
20 Mar 24     i   `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!12Mark Isaak
20 Mar 24     i    `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!11Ron Dean
21 Mar 24     i     +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!4jillery
21 Mar 24     i     i`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!3Ron Dean
22 Mar 24     i     i `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2jillery
22 Mar 24     i     i  `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1erik simpson
21 Mar 24     i     `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!6Mark Isaak
21 Mar 24     i      `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!5Ron Dean
22 Mar 24     i       +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Mark Isaak
23 Mar 24     i       i`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ron Dean
22 Mar 24     i       `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Burkhard
22 Mar 24     i        `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ernest Major
18 Mar 24     `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!87jillery
20 Mar 24      `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!86Ron Dean
21 Mar 24       `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!85jillery
21 Mar 24        `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!84Ron Dean
22 Mar 24         +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!5jillery
23 Mar 24         i`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!4Ron Dean
23 Mar 24         i `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!3jillery
25 Mar 24         i  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Ron Dean
25 Mar 24         i   `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1jillery
22 Mar 24         +- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Burkhard
22 Mar 24         +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!58Ernest Major
23 Mar 24         i`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!57Ron Dean
23 Mar 24         i `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!56Mark Isaak
24 Mar 24         i  +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!53Ron Dean
24 Mar 24         i  i+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!39*Hemidactylus*
24 Mar 24         i  ii+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2DB Cates
24 Mar 24         i  iii`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1jillery
24 Mar 24         i  ii+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!10Athel Cornish-Bowden
24 Mar 24         i  iii`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!9Ron Dean
24 Mar 24         i  iii `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!8*Hemidactylus*
24 Mar 24         i  iii  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!7Ron Dean
24 Mar 24         i  iii   `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!6*Hemidactylus*
24 Mar 24         i  iii    `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!5Ron Dean
24 Mar 24         i  iii     +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!3*Hemidactylus*
25 Mar 24         i  iii     i`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2jillery
25 Mar 24         i  iii     i `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ron Dean
25 Mar 24         i  iii     `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1jillery
25 Mar 24         i  ii`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!26Mark Isaak
25 Mar 24         i  ii `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!25Ron Dean
26 Mar 24         i  ii  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!24Mark Isaak
26 Mar 24         i  ii   +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!3*Hemidactylus*
26 Mar 24         i  ii   i+- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ron Dean
27 Mar 24         i  ii   i`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1jillery
26 Mar 24         i  ii   `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!20Ron Dean
28 Mar 24         i  ii    `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!19Mark Isaak
28 Mar 24         i  ii     +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!11Athel Cornish-Bowden
28 Mar 24         i  ii     i+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!3erik simpson
28 Mar 24         i  ii     ii+- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Martin Harran
29 Mar 24         i  ii     ii`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1jillery
28 Mar 24         i  ii     i+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!6Martin Harran
29 Mar 24         i  ii     ii`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!5Ron Dean
29 Mar 24         i  ii     ii `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!4Martin Harran
29 Mar 24         i  ii     ii  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!3Ron Dean
29 Mar 24         i  ii     ii   `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Martin Harran
29 Mar 24         i  ii     ii    `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ernest Major
29 Mar 24         i  ii     i`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ron Dean
29 Mar 24         i  ii     `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!7Ron Dean
24 Mar 24         i  i+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!12Burkhard
25 Mar 24         i  i`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Mark Isaak
24 Mar 24         i  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2*Hemidactylus*
23 Mar 24         `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!19Chris Thompson

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