Re: Making your mind up

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Sujet : Re: Making your mind up
De : martinharran (at) *nospam* gmail.com (Martin Harran)
Groupes : talk.origins
Date : 29. Apr 2024, 17:46:33
Autres entêtes
Organisation : University of Ediacara
Message-ID : <ngev2j911dkalaitodoq05gppncjqnq3gu@4ax.com>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
User-Agent : ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 15:12:31 +0200, Arkalen <arkalen@proton.me> wrote:

On 27/04/2024 10:09, Martin Harran wrote:

I'm snipping a lot of stuff here because I think some of the
discussion is moving towards endless circles. Also, my time for this
is a bit limited so I'm cutting to what I think are some of the key
points.

[…]

I'm a bit confused because you said earlier that "you accept science can
only study visible behavior" but now it seems you categorize gravity as
non-visible while agreeing it's something science can and does study.

I meant that gravity does have visible 'behaviour' - we can see the
apple falling from the tree and start to test/quantify different
things falling from different heights and so on.



[…]

>
In terms of why I originally brought this up, I was responding to your
statement that "science cannot explain consciousness of which
decision-making is a subset". I probably misread the sentence as saying
science cannot explain those things *in principle* when you actually
just meant that science can't explain them *right now*.

Yes, I meant science can't explain them right *now* but I also
expressed my opinion that science is focused on a particular approach
- neurological research - which I don't think will *on its own*
provide an explanation.

Even so I'm
surprised at the idea that science currently cannot explain
decision-making - but then I'm not sure what level of explanation you
were thinking of with that sentence.

Science can explain the neurological process that go on inside the
brain whilst we are making decisions but cannot explain how we arrive
at a particular decision.

>
But all that to say "visible" in this context referred to the fact that
if we think of consciousness as causing our visible behavior, then
science absolutely could explain it in principle. And I probably
misunderstood you when I thought this was something you might disagree with.

As I've said before, neurology has allowed us to get an incredible
understanding of the 'mechanics' of the brain but also as I've said
before, I see that like an electronics engineer who has an incredible
depth of knowledge about the electronic processes going on in my
computer but that doesn't give him any understanding about the ideas I
am using that computer to express.

[…]

>
Science doesn't reject dualism in principle, it rejects it because no
dualism hypothesis meets the standards of a scientific hypothesis. "I
think we should be able to figure out ways of studying the effects and
symptoms that would come from dualism" is exactly correct! Can you give
examples of such effects or symptoms?

Okay, to take an area that intrigues me. If our mind is just the
products of our body, I would expect it to be under the control of
that body. In practice, however, it is a two-way process- our minds
can also control our bodies. For example, placebos can "cure" people
even though they have no medicinal value whatsoever. Or take
hypnotism; someone can put me into a hypnotic state where I no longer
feel pain. That hypnosis is induced by an external force which shows
that control of our mind is not confined to our own bodies.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying these are validation of dualism but
they are indicators of our minds being capable of being influenced by
*external* forces.

[…]


Date Sujet#  Auteur
5 Apr 24 * Making your mind up169Martin Harran
5 Apr 24 +* Re: Making your mind up6Arkalen
6 Apr 24 i`* Re: Making your mind up5Martin Harran
6 Apr 24 i `* Re: Making your mind up4Arkalen
9 Apr 24 i  `* Re: Making your mind up3Martin Harran
9 Apr 24 i   `* Re: Making your mind up2Arkalen
10 Apr 24 i    `- Re: Making your mind up1Martin Harran
5 Apr 24 +* Re: Making your mind up161DB Cates
6 Apr 24 i`* Re: Making your mind up160Martin Harran
6 Apr 24 i +* Re: Making your mind up90LDagget
7 Apr 24 i i+- Re: Making your mind up1DB Cates
7 Apr 24 i i`* Re: Making your mind up88Martin Harran
7 Apr 24 i i +- Re: Making your mind up1DB Cates
8 Apr 24 i i +* Re: Making your mind up10Arkalen
9 Apr 24 i i i`* Re: Making your mind up9Martin Harran
9 Apr 24 i i i +* Re: Making your mind up2Arkalen
10 Apr 24 i i i i`- Re: Making your mind up1Martin Harran
9 Apr 24 i i i `* Re: Making your mind up6DB Cates
9 Apr 24 i i i  `* Re: Making your mind up5Martin Harran
9 Apr 24 i i i   `* Re: Making your mind up4DB Cates
10 Apr 24 i i i    `* Re: Making your mind up3Martin Harran
10 Apr 24 i i i     `* Re: Making your mind up2DB Cates
11 Apr 24 i i i      `- Re: Making your mind up1Martin Harran
19 Apr 24 i i `* Re: Making your mind up76Mark Isaak
19 Apr 24 i i  +- Re: Making your mind up1FromTheRafters
19 Apr 24 i i  +* Re: Making your mind up5Arkalen
20 Apr 24 i i  i`* Re: Making your mind up4DB Cates
20 Apr 24 i i  i `* Re: Making your mind up3Arkalen
21 Apr 24 i i  i  +- Re: Making your mind up1*Hemidactylus*
22 Apr 24 i i  i  `- Re: Making your mind up1Martin Harran
22 Apr 24 i i  `* Re: Making your mind up69Martin Harran
24 Apr 24 i i   `* Re: Making your mind up68Mark Isaak
26 Apr 24 i i    `* Re: Making your mind up67Martin Harran
26 Apr 24 i i     +* Re: Making your mind up8Ernest Major
27 Apr 24 i i     i`* Re: Making your mind up7Martin Harran
27 Apr 24 i i     i `* Re: Making your mind up6Arkalen
2 May 24 i i     i  `* Re: Making your mind up5Martin Harran
2 May 24 i i     i   +* Re: Making your mind up3Arkalen
14 May 24 i i     i   i`* Re: Making your mind up2Martin Harran
21 May 24 i i     i   i `- Re: Making your mind up1Arkalen
2 May 24 i i     i   `- Re: Making your mind up1DB Cates
26 Apr 24 i i     `* Re: Making your mind up58Mark Isaak
27 Apr 24 i i      +* Re: Making your mind up42Bob Casanova
28 Apr 24 i i      i`* Re: Making your mind up41Mark Isaak
28 Apr 24 i i      i +* Re: Making your mind up2Martin Harran
29 Apr 24 i i      i i`- Re: Making your mind up1Mark Isaak
28 Apr 24 i i      i `* Re: Making your mind up38Bob Casanova
29 Apr 24 i i      i  +* Re: Making your mind up3*Hemidactylus*
4 May 24 i i      i  i`* Re: Making your mind up2*Hemidactylus*
4 May 24 i i      i  i `- Re: Making your mind up1Bob Casanova
29 Apr 24 i i      i  `* Re: Making your mind up34Mark Isaak
29 Apr 24 i i      i   +* Re: Making your mind up26Bob Casanova
30 Apr 24 i i      i   i+* Re: Making your mind up24DB Cates
30 Apr 24 i i      i   ii`* Re: Making your mind up23Bob Casanova
2 May 24 i i      i   ii `* Re: Making your mind up22DB Cates
2 May 24 i i      i   ii  `* Re: Making your mind up21Bob Casanova
2 May 24 i i      i   ii   `* Re: Making your mind up20DB Cates
3 May 24 i i      i   ii    +* Re: Making your mind up16Bob Casanova
3 May 24 i i      i   ii    i`* Re: Making your mind up15*Hemidactylus*
3 May 24 i i      i   ii    i `* Re: Making your mind up14Bob Casanova
3 May 24 i i      i   ii    i  +* Re: Making your mind up9Arkalen
3 May 24 i i      i   ii    i  i+* Re: Making your mind up5LDagget
3 May 24 i i      i   ii    i  ii+- Re: Making your mind up1Arkalen
4 May 24 i i      i   ii    i  ii+* Re: Making your mind up2DB Cates
4 May 24 i i      i   ii    i  iii`- Re: Making your mind up1*Hemidactylus*
4 May 24 i i      i   ii    i  ii`- Re: Making your mind up1*Hemidactylus*
4 May 24 i i      i   ii    i  i`* Re: Making your mind up3Bob Casanova
4 May 24 i i      i   ii    i  i `* Re: Making your mind up2Arkalen
4 May 24 i i      i   ii    i  i  `- Re: Making your mind up1Bob Casanova
3 May 24 i i      i   ii    i  `* Re: Making your mind up4*Hemidactylus*
4 May 24 i i      i   ii    i   `* Re: Making your mind up3Bob Casanova
4 May 24 i i      i   ii    i    `* Re: Making your mind up2*Hemidactylus*
4 May 24 i i      i   ii    i     `- Re: Making your mind up1Bob Casanova
3 May 24 i i      i   ii    `* Re: Making your mind up3Martin Harran
4 May 24 i i      i   ii     `* Re: Making your mind up2DB Cates
14 May 24 i i      i   ii      `- Re: Making your mind up1Martin Harran
30 Apr 24 i i      i   i`- Re: Making your mind up1Arkalen
29 Apr 24 i i      i   `* Re: Making your mind up7*Hemidactylus*
29 Apr 24 i i      i    `* Re: Making your mind up6Bob Casanova
29 Apr 24 i i      i     +* Re: Making your mind up2erik simpson
30 Apr 24 i i      i     i`- Re: Making your mind up1Bob Casanova
29 Apr 24 i i      i     +- Re: Making your mind up1*Hemidactylus*
30 Apr 24 i i      i     `* Re: Making your mind up2Martin Harran
30 Apr 24 i i      i      `- Re: Making your mind up1Bob Casanova
27 Apr 24 i i      `* Re: Making your mind up15Martin Harran
29 Apr 24 i i       `* Re: Making your mind up14Mark Isaak
30 Apr 24 i i        +* Re: Making your mind up3Arkalen
30 Apr 24 i i        i`* Re: Making your mind up2Martin Harran
4 May 24 i i        i `- Re: Making your mind up1Arkalen
30 Apr 24 i i        `* Re: Making your mind up10Martin Harran
1 May 24 i i         `* Re: Making your mind up9Mark Isaak
1 May 24 i i          +* Re: Making your mind up7Martin Harran
2 May 24 i i          i`* Re: Making your mind up6Mark Isaak
2 May 24 i i          i +- Re: Making your mind up1LDagget
2 May 24 i i          i `* Re: Making your mind up4Arkalen
2 May 24 i i          i  +* Re: Making your mind up2Mark Isaak
2 May 24 i i          i  i`- Re: Making your mind up1Arkalen
2 May 24 i i          i  `- Re: Making your mind up1DB Cates
2 May 24 i i          `- Re: Making your mind up1Arkalen
7 Apr 24 i `* Re: Making your mind up69DB Cates
7 Apr 24 i  `* Re: Making your mind up68Martin Harran
19 Apr 24 `- Re: Making your mind up1Mark Isaak

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