Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!

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Sujet : Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!
De : 69jpil69 (at) *nospam* gmail.com (jillery)
Groupes : talk.origins
Date : 13. Mar 2024, 08:47:38
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On Tue, 12 Mar 2024 23:08:26 -0400, Ron Dean
<rondean-noreply@gmail.com> wrote:

jillery wrote:
On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 12:27:49 -0500, Ron Dean
<rondean-noreply@gmail.com> wrote:
 
jillery wrote:
On Sat, 09 Mar 2024 11:12:52 +0000, Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
>
jillery <69jpil69@gmail.com> writes:
>
On Fri, 08 Mar 2024 17:44:11 +0000, Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:


<snip uncommented text>


The blind watch maker didn't have any designs, not even in Braille.
>
I think using the word 'design' in a metophorical sense in a discussion
about evolution is going to cause no end of problems.
>
>
These problems are the basis of ID, and so already exist.  There's no
"going to" about it.
>
This is true! But since the observation of design aligns with the first
principle of the scientific method, then it follows that ID is
scientific.  By contrast evolution pretends that observation is false,
misleading and deceptive.
 
 
Your comment above uses a nonsense understanding of "observation". The
design to which Dawkins refers is of pattern, a noun, not of
purposeful design, a verb.  
>
 You are "interpreting"  what Dawkins said. His actual words were:
>
“Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of
having been designed for a purpose.” {Richard Dawkins, The Blind
Watchmaker, 1996, p. 1}
Another comment:
>
“Natural selection is the blind watchmaker, blind because it does not
see ahead, does not plan consequences, has no purpose in view. Yet the
living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the
illusion of design and planning.” {Richard Dawkins, The Blind
Watchmaker, 1996, p. 21.}


The above quotes show I interpreted Dawkins correctly, and show you
continue to quotemine him.  Neither quote shows Dawkins implies design
as a verb is observed.  Instead, he explicitly says such observations
are *illusions* due to the natural but incorrect *conclusions* that
design as a noun necessarily are purposely created by intelligence.


So, how does he know that what is observed here is not the actual case?


Once again, you identified no observation of design as a verb, only
observation of design as a noun.  Just as a thirsty desert traveler
will *observe* a mirage and *conclude* water, you *observe* design as
a noun and *conclude* design as a verb.


If it has the overwhelming capacity to impress us with the illusion of
design and planning. If this is not the case, then the designer
purposefully, willfully and deliberately deceived us.


Incorrect.  It merely shows natural human tendencies to perceive
patterns where none exist, and to perceive intent in inanimate
objects,  a tendency trivially explained by natural selection.


It's my contention
that Dawkins or anyone can know for certain. In reality, this is a
psychological position and a philosophy, and since
atheism is his supreme paradigm, he has no option. His paradigm takes
priority and overwhelms
everything, including observation, evidence and facts.
>
  When you, Ron Dean, say " If it looks to
be designed then it is designed.", you have jumped to a conclusion.
>
No, but I admit I went too far out on a limb.


Actual observations are not informed by limb length; conclusions are.
Your admission shows you know you jumped to a conclusion.  Just admit
it.


I know there are things
that give a false impression. Stars appear to be tiny dots of light on a
black background, the earth appears to be stationary, with the sun
traveling around it. And there are others. Mountains in the distance
appear to be small. But there absolutely must be examination and
testing. You can travel to the mountain and determine its not tiny.
There are ways to determine star distances and sizes. The earth
movements, can be understood relative to the changing patterns of stars.
But how can you determine that life was not designed? If the present is
key to the past, we know from Pasteur's experiment and from present
experience life comes _only_ from preexisting life and from the
_key_this must have been true in the past "And God breathed the breath
of life into nan and man became a living soul". So, far there's no
better explanation! So, how do we know that the record of complex
creatures first appearing during the Cambrian were not just placed there?
>
The origin of complex information contained in DNA.  In every case in
the present all complex information is derived from intelligence - that
is a mind: there is no exceptions today and so it must have been so in
the past - 3.8 - 4 billion years ago according to the present day
observations.
Not that evolution cannot theorize explanation for what is observed.
However, I see evolution as a deliberately conceived alternative to
intelligent design.
>
I believe there are many cases where evolution and design can be seen as
the explanation, but there are examples where, except for biases,
deliberately engineered design seems to be the _better_ explanation.
This is in reference to the _master_control_genes_ called the "homobox
genes".
The eye is one that's readily comes to mind, but is just one of many
homeboy genes. It is often stated that the eye evolved independently
over a period of millions of years at least 39 times.  However,
it's know that many of these trilobites had highly developed eyes when
they first appeared in the fossil record over 520 million years ago.
>
https://www.amnh.org/research/paleontology/collections/fossil-invertebrate-collection/trilobite-website/the-trilobite-files/trilobite-eyes
>
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/08/429-million-year-old-trilobite-already-had-modern-like-compound-eyes/
>
 So, evolution of a highly developed eye already existed during the
Cambrian which contradicts the long standing doctrine regarding the long
term multiple and independent gradual development or the origin of eyes;
that is except for a theoretical rendition of an evolutionary process
leading to highly developed eyes before or during the early Cambrian for
which evidence is scant if at all.
Another important characteristic of homeobox genes is they are extremely
ancient, these master control genes are universal and they are  fixed or
stable virtually unchanged from the beginning.
Evidence of this is an experment where eye gene called Pax6 gene was
taken from a mammal a mouse and placed in the fruit fly and the mouse
master control genes controlled the downstream specific eye genes of the
fly to produce fly eyes. IOW the Mouse gene controlled the development of
the fly eye in the fruit fly.
>
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/03/4/l_034_04.html
>
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/04/4/text_pop/l_044_01.html
>
"....unusually high degree of homology between Drosophila ey(e) and both
the mouse and human PAX6 genes...."
>
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5746045/
>
This is an outstanding example of a highly developmental form of a
proficient and an excellent engineering practice. Of course the same
Pax6 gene is involved in human eyes.
>
Your "observation" aka conclusion is no more valid than if I said that
by observing the constellation Taurus, I saw an actual bull in night
sky.  Even electrical engineers should be able to understand the
difference.
 
That's a stupid example! I gave you more credit that - Jill!


That's a stupid opinion!  You don't even try to say how my example is
stupid.  In fact, it's a perfect example of your expressed line of
reasoning: "If it looks to be designed then it is designed." Either
acknowledge the analogy or admit you don't understand the difference.
Pick your poison.


But you are right in one respect, as I discussed above. design can be
deceptive, but _if_ you cannot prove that it's false or an illusion,
then there is _no_ reason and no justification for ruling out design.


You demand others prove a negative, which I know you know is
impossible.  More to the point, every one of your examples are of
design as a noun, from which you say you "observe" design as a verb,
but instead jump to that illogical conclusion.  Not sure how even you
still don't understand the difference.


However, for some people  there is a _purpose_ for doing just that. IE
for philosophical reasons there is the need for  the elimination or
removal of design from the picture of life.
Even science has later in its development has assumed this philosophy -
which was a foreign notion to the founders of modern science.


Once again, you assert negative motives to others you know you can't
know, and don't even try to show.  This is not the legacy I would want
to leave behind on this Earth.  Apparently your mileage varies.


Here I have provided a small number of reason I take and defend my
position as to origins. Of course it's your right to reject any or all
of my reasons, I think as I do and no hard feelings. Whether or not we
agree, I do have an appreciation and a respect for you.

--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge


Date Sujet#  Auteur
13 Mar 24 * Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!142Ron Dean
13 Mar 24 `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!141jillery
14 Mar 24  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!140Ron Dean
15 Mar 24   `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!139jillery
17 Mar 24    `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!138Ron Dean
17 Mar 24     +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!22erik simpson
17 Mar 24     i`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!21Dexter
18 Mar 24     i `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!20Ron Dean
18 Mar 24     i  +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!6John Harshman
18 Mar 24     i  i+- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Kerr-Mudd, John
18 Mar 24     i  i`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!4Ron Dean
18 Mar 24     i  i +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Kerr-Mudd, John
18 Mar 24     i  i i`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1J. J. Lodder
18 Mar 24     i  i `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1John Harshman
18 Mar 24     i  +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!8jillery
18 Mar 24     i  i+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!6erik simpson
18 Mar 24     i  ii+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!4Bob Casanova
18 Mar 24     i  iii+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Athel Cornish-Bowden
19 Mar 24     i  iiii`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Bob Casanova
20 Mar 24     i  iii`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1JTEM
20 Mar 24     i  ii`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1jillery
18 Mar 24     i  i`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ron Dean
19 Mar 24     i  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!5Dexter
19 Mar 24     i   `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!4Ron Dean
20 Mar 24     i    `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!3jillery
20 Mar 24     i     `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Ron Dean
21 Mar 24     i      `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1jillery
17 Mar 24     +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!28Ernest Major
18 Mar 24     i`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!27Ron Dean
18 Mar 24     i +- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Vincent Maycock
18 Mar 24     i +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!10jillery
18 Mar 24     i i`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!9Ron Dean
20 Mar 24     i i `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!8jillery
20 Mar 24     i i  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!7Ron Dean
20 Mar 24     i i   +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Kerr-Mudd, John
21 Mar 24     i i   i`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ron Dean
21 Mar 24     i i   +- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1jillery
21 Mar 24     i i   +- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Mark Isaak
22 Mar 24     i i   `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Burkhard
23 Mar 24     i i    `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ron Dean
19 Mar 24     i `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!15Mark Isaak
19 Mar 24     i  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!14Ron Dean
19 Mar 24     i   +- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ernest Major
20 Mar 24     i   `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!12Mark Isaak
20 Mar 24     i    `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!11Ron Dean
21 Mar 24     i     +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!4jillery
21 Mar 24     i     i`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!3Ron Dean
22 Mar 24     i     i `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2jillery
22 Mar 24     i     i  `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1erik simpson
21 Mar 24     i     `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!6Mark Isaak
21 Mar 24     i      `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!5Ron Dean
22 Mar 24     i       +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Mark Isaak
23 Mar 24     i       i`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ron Dean
22 Mar 24     i       `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Burkhard
22 Mar 24     i        `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ernest Major
18 Mar 24     `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!87jillery
20 Mar 24      `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!86Ron Dean
21 Mar 24       `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!85jillery
21 Mar 24        `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!84Ron Dean
22 Mar 24         +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!5jillery
23 Mar 24         i`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!4Ron Dean
23 Mar 24         i `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!3jillery
25 Mar 24         i  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Ron Dean
25 Mar 24         i   `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1jillery
22 Mar 24         +- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Burkhard
22 Mar 24         +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!58Ernest Major
23 Mar 24         i`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!57Ron Dean
23 Mar 24         i `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!56Mark Isaak
24 Mar 24         i  +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!53Ron Dean
24 Mar 24         i  i+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!39*Hemidactylus*
24 Mar 24         i  ii+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2DB Cates
24 Mar 24         i  iii`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1jillery
24 Mar 24         i  ii+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!10Athel Cornish-Bowden
24 Mar 24         i  iii`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!9Ron Dean
24 Mar 24         i  iii `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!8*Hemidactylus*
24 Mar 24         i  iii  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!7Ron Dean
24 Mar 24         i  iii   `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!6*Hemidactylus*
24 Mar 24         i  iii    `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!5Ron Dean
24 Mar 24         i  iii     +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!3*Hemidactylus*
25 Mar 24         i  iii     i`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2jillery
25 Mar 24         i  iii     i `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ron Dean
25 Mar 24         i  iii     `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1jillery
25 Mar 24         i  ii`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!26Mark Isaak
25 Mar 24         i  ii `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!25Ron Dean
26 Mar 24         i  ii  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!24Mark Isaak
26 Mar 24         i  ii   +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!3*Hemidactylus*
26 Mar 24         i  ii   i+- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ron Dean
27 Mar 24         i  ii   i`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1jillery
26 Mar 24         i  ii   `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!20Ron Dean
28 Mar 24         i  ii    `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!19Mark Isaak
28 Mar 24         i  ii     +* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!11Athel Cornish-Bowden
28 Mar 24         i  ii     i+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!3erik simpson
28 Mar 24         i  ii     ii+- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Martin Harran
29 Mar 24         i  ii     ii`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1jillery
28 Mar 24         i  ii     i+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!6Martin Harran
29 Mar 24         i  ii     ii`* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!5Ron Dean
29 Mar 24         i  ii     ii `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!4Martin Harran
29 Mar 24         i  ii     ii  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!3Ron Dean
29 Mar 24         i  ii     ii   `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2Martin Harran
29 Mar 24         i  ii     ii    `- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ernest Major
29 Mar 24         i  ii     i`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Ron Dean
29 Mar 24         i  ii     `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!7Ron Dean
24 Mar 24         i  i+* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!12Burkhard
25 Mar 24         i  i`- Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!1Mark Isaak
24 Mar 24         i  `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!2*Hemidactylus*
23 Mar 24         `* Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!19Chris Thompson

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