Re: Making your mind up

On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 10:19:45 -0500, DB Cates <cates_db@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On 2024-04-10 4:09 AM, Martin Harran wrote:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2024 11:28:11 -0500, DB Cates <cates_db@hotmail.com>
wrote:

[snip for focus]

Yep. It's just the spectre (ha) of the supernatural that seems to
inevitably arise when 'free will' is invoked that bothers me.

>
What bothers me is when people dismiss things out of hand just because
they might have even a hint of the supernatural.
>

Hint? Is is supernatural

 
Funny how in the whole discussion about free will and determinism, you
are the only one to raise the supernatural.
>

see just below
>

and that bothers me because it invalidates much
of what we believe we know about the universe.

 
I think at this stage, you have a broad idea of my beliefs but just to
summarise them - I'm a religious believer (Catholic), I'm a dualist
inclined towards panpsychism and I believe there is such a thing as
free will. I don't reject any scientific knowledge or *evidence-based*
conclusions, finding my beliefs readily compatible with them. What in
my beliefs invalidates much of what we know about the universe?
>

It's the 'dualism' bit. Perhaps I misunderstand, but It seems to me that
dualism requires the existence of some non-material entity that can
cause material changes in defiance of physical laws.

What physical laws are being defied?

That meets my
definition of supernatural.

The general definition of 'the supernatural' is "caused by forces that
cannot be explained by science" (adj) or "things that cannot be
explained by science" (noun)
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/supernatural

As discussed just a couple of months ago, science, at least at this
point in time, cannot explain consciousness of which decision-making
is a subset. In that sense, therefore, determinism also qualifies as
the supernatural. I think your definition of the supernatural is
related to a particular association of the supernatural with religious
belief but that is down to your own personal belief and, if you want
to be consistent in your scientific arguments, you really need to
treat belief in determinism just as much based on the "supernatural"
as free will is.

I can't help (ha) but feel that belief in
free will and dualism are two sides of the same coin.I'm sure you don't
*reject* scientific knowledge but I think you must be allowing some
'leeway?' to accept dualism.

I honestly can't think of any area of scientific knowledge where I
have to allow any such 'leeway'; can you suggest any in particular?

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