Re: West Virginia creationism

On Sun, 19 May 2024 18:26:37 -0700, John Harshman
<john.harshman@gmail.com> wrote:

On 5/19/24 3:27 PM, Ron Dean wrote:

John Harshman wrote:

On 5/18/24 8:41 PM, Ron Dean wrote:

Chris Thompson wrote:

Ron Dean wrote:

Ernest Major wrote:

On 14/05/2024 01:58, Chris Thompson wrote:

Ernest Major wrote:

On 13/05/2024 15:19, Chris Thompson wrote:

Ron Dean wrote:

Chris Thompson wrote:

Ron Dean wrote:

Chris Thompson wrote:

Ron Dean wrote:
>
major snip
>

 >
The Slave-holding South. Southerners bought slaves from
the North. What about the Northern Slave Merchants and
Manufacturers who built ships for the cargo for the slave
trading North. This is rarely mentioned in history. And of
course, history is written by the victors.
Not to mention the real cause of the US Civil War was
tariffs imposed on the South. Lincoln had no objection to
slavery. In fact slavery as a issue did not exist until 2
years after the start of the war. It was raised by Lincoln
only after Great Brittan showed an interested in entering
into the war on the side of the South. Slavery was then
made a moral issue, which deterred Britten, which earlier
had outlawed slave trading.
>

>
Well we can add US history to the
lengthy-but-ever-expanding list of topics about which you
blather sans knowledge.
>
The founders knew that slavery would eventually have to be
abolished. But they also know that if they tried to do so
immediately after gaining independence from Britain there
would be no hope of forming a single nation. That didn't
stop them from fighting about slavery (and viciously at
times) in the Constitutional Convention of 1787- rather a
fair bit of time before the 1858 point in time you assert
(idiotically) people all of a sudden became concerned with
slavery. And at that Convention a resolution was passed
that the international slave trade would be banned in the
US in 1800.
>
You also apparently slept through the part in class when
the Missouri Compromise was discussed. That was in 1820,
and the result was Missouri coming into the US as a slave
state and Maine as a free state.
>
We probably should also mention the Compromise of 1850,
brokered between Henry Clay and Stephen Douglas (do those
names sound at all familiar?). This group of laws included,
shamefully, the Fugitive Slave Act, which would do much to
inflame tensions between north and south.
>
But the two compromises also led pretty much directly to
the Kansas-Nebraska Act (1854) which precipitated the
disaster now called "Bleeding Kansas." Maybe you've heard
of John Brown, and the Pottawatomie Massacre and the raid
on Harper's Ferry? No? Not surprising if you think no one
cared about slavery until two years before the Civil War.
>
And tariffs were the cause of the Civil War? Even for you,
that's unmitigated, steaming fetid fecal matter. It. Was.
Slavery.
Not. Tariffs.
Not. States'. Rights.
Slavery.
Read the individual states' articles of secession. They're
all available. Without fail, they all inform us that the
reason they are seceding is slavery.
Read the reports of the Cornerstone Speech by Alexander
Stephens- the Vice President of the CSA. Slavery is the
cornerstone of their ideology; it is the reason for the
war; it is the inherent inferiority of Black people ("the
Negro") that relegates them to their lot as slaves.
>
You're wrong about everything.
And this revisionist crap about the cause of the Civil War
is especially disgusting. Stop it.
>

Not that I don't find the fact that slavery is repugnant,
unjustified and inhuman: I absolutely do.
But again there's enough guilt to go around. The Northern
states originally were also involved with
slavery, a fact not mentioned by you and rarely iealsewhere.
Northerners were the slavers that built slave ships and
manufactured goods for trading and Northern merchants traded
with native people for slaves. It was not Southern farmers
going to Africa for invading the continent for slaves, but
they bought slaves from the northern merchant. In fact my
ggggrandfather (3) gfathers was a slave.  This also applies
to most African- Americans. My 14 year old gggmother was
raped, and he was hung. Heard this from my grandmother. Not
that I'm proud of this part of my ancestory. But I have had
life, which otherwise I would not have had.
>
My mother was from Germany, married my father,  stationed in
Germany after WWII. So, had it not been for slavery I would
not have had life, nor life in the US. Would my father and
mother ever have met except for WWII - not likely.   The
point is we don't always have control over the events that
happened, and often tragedies that happen can have positive
outcomes for some of us.
<
https://www.marottaonmoney.com/protective-tariffs-the-primary-cause-of-the-civil-war/
 >
https://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/tariffs-and-the-american-civil-war.html
 >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_in_United_States_history

>
90% of what you wrote has nothing to do with the topic. I for
one don't believe much of anything you wrote about your
family history, and even if it's true, I don't care.
>
Your first reference was written by a pair of financial
advisers. Couldn't you have at least made an effort to find
even a shitty apologist historian to support your disgusting
racist bullshit? As for your second reference, here's a
passage from near the end (did you read anything besides the
title? Your scholarship is matched evenly with your honesty-
both are in the sewer):
>
"For the northern government’s diplomatic objectives, as
Cobden and Bright continuously reminded Sumner, the Morrill
Tariff had been a shortsighted strategic blunder. It
unintentionally alienated an otherwise natural anti-slavery
ally for what could, at best, be described as short term
economic favors to a few politically connected firms and
industrialists. The Confederacy eagerly exploited this
misstep in its unsuccessful quest for diplomatic recognition,
yet in doing so also elevated the tariff cause from its role
as an ancillary secessionist grievance to a centerpiece of
Lost Cause historiography."
>
That last bit about "Lost Cause historiography"? They are
pointing right at you (and the racist scum who wrote your
first shitty reference).
 You're still wrong about everything, and you're a liar, and
you're a racist and an apologist for slavers.

 >
You are so typical of people who cannot discredit an argument,
they sink to slander, false accusations, liable, malice, back
stabbing and character assassination. You did this without an
shred
of evidence to back up your charges and accusations. This no
doubt is you projecting you absence of character onto me. I'll
have nothing more to do with you, a false accuser!

>
Spare me your faux outrage.
You claimed no one cared about slavery until two years after
the Civil War started. I brought up the Missouri Compromise,
the Compromise of 1850, the Kansas-Nebraska Act, and Bleeding
Kansas- all years before the start of the Civil War. You
claimed that tariffs were the primary cause of the Civil War. I
brought up the Articles of Secession of every one of the rebel
states, all of which list slavery as the reason they seceded. I
also brought up the Cornerstone Speech by the vice-president of
the CSA, in which he clearly states the same thing.
>
That you refuse to acknowledge evidence does not mean it does
not exist. That you continue to roll out your Lost Cause
bullshit and deny slavery caused the Civil War is the typical
apologetic crap of racist revisionists. It would seem obvious
to the casual observer that you are the once with no evidence,
and you are going into your little anger routine (again) to
cover it up. You are dishonest, you refuse to address arguments
that prove you wrong (and you're still wrong about everything)
and the garbage you spew is racist revisionist sewage.
>
But by all means, have nothing else to do with me. I would be
wondering what horrible thing I'd done if you had a good
opinion of me.
>
Chris
snip
>

 From the previous century
>
Josiah Wedgewood (Darwin's grandfather) manufactured the
abolitionist "am I not a man and a brother" medallion in 1787.
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedgwood_anti-slavery_medallion
>
"The Slave's Lament", commonly attributed to Robert Burns, was
published in 1792.
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Slave%27s_Lament
>

>
Now we are likely to hear about the English participation in the
slave trade for all those years. Never mind they banned slavery
years before the US- it's still obviously ALL THEIR FAULT- just
as Dean trotted out the fact that slavery was at one time legal
in northern states, too. A more pathetic example of tu quoque is
difficult to find.

>

>
Chris
>

>
Going back to the 11th Century
>
"A social reformer, Wulfstan struggled to bridge the gap between
the old and new regimes, and to alleviate the suffering of the
poor. He was a strong opponent of the slave trade, and together
with Lanfranc, was mainly responsible for ending the trade from
Bristol." (WikiPedia)
>

This Guy, Chis read meaning into my comments that I never intended,
never thought and never meant!
>

>
And yet you never recanted your errors. You claimed tariffs were the
cause of the Civil War.

 >
  I was never taught that tariffs were the cause of the US Civil War.
I had always accepted that slavery was the primary cause of the US
Civil War. I did a search of the net and what I found was that unfair
tariffs imposed on the South was the cause of the war between the
states. I was surprised by this!
There are several sources for this claim: None less than Britannica,
Wikepediam Smithsonian magazine:
https://www.britannica.com/video/245851/Tariff-of-1828
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_in_United_States_history
https://www.marottaonmoney.com/protective-tariffs-the-primary-cause-of-the-civil-war/
https://northcarolinahistory.org/encyclopedia/tariffs-founding-era-to-american-civil-war/
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/history-american-shifting-position-tariffs-180968775/https://philmagness.com/2017/05/on-tariffs-and-the-american-civil-war/

>
1st link is to a video I refuse to watch.
2nd link does not make the claim.
3rd link makes the claim but doesn't support it, with good reason
since it can't be supported.
4th link doesn't make the claim.
5th link doesn't make the claim.
>
I think you just googled "tariff" and "civil war" without reading the
results.
>

The Cornerstone speech and the Articles of

Secession of all of the rebel states prove you wrong.

Do you think that slavery was the only cause? I can believe that
slavery definately was a cause, but slavery had existed in the South
for 240+ years before the start of the civil war. So, there must have
been other factors which sparked the war. I know there were people in
the North and indeed the South. I learned that a small percentage of
Southerners were slave holders.

>
Neither claim is relevant. It wasn't the mere existence of slavery
that was the cause of the war. It was the election of Lincoln,
perceived in the south (rightly) as a threat to slavery. That is,
slavery wasn't the cause, per se, it was the desire of the south to
preserve slavery that was the cause. And while a small percentage of
southerners were slaveholders, they were the ones in charge. And
slaveholders made up a much higher percentage of the Confederate
government and army than of the general (white) population.
>
You need to stop digging.
>

You are right! I don't know why I got involved with this topic.The truth
is, I've never lost any sleep over the US civil War or it's cause. But
my curiosity was aroused when I learned that slavery in the US was in
practice for 240 years before the start of the civil war. So, it seemed
obvious that something besides slavery that had to _spark_ the war.  It
was the election of Lincoln as President. But then I learned about
Lincoln's letter to Horace Greeley, editor and publisher of the New York
Tribune newspaper.
 
  https://teachingamericanhistory.org/document/letter-to-horace-greeley/

>
If I'm right, why are you still digging?
>

The spew you

asserted is typical- no, stereotypical- of racist Lost Cause

>

This  falsely implies that stating the obvious is being racist. I stated
my personal view on this earlier, "Not that I don't find the fact that
slavery was repugnant, unjustified and inhuman: I absolutely do."

>
All very nice, but you appear to have fallen for the "Lost Cause" myth.
Can you explain why?
>

e>>> apologists trying to whitewash the south's reprehensible behavior.

And you never rejected it.

This is a deliberate ball-faced lie, I wrote _nothing_ for the purpose
of whitewashing the South's institution of slavery.  Reprehensible
behavior should be applied to both the North and the South.
The North because of the slave trade merchants, that sent ships to
Africa and traded for slaves which they brought back and sold  to the
South for profit. The South for buying slaves from Northern slave
merchants. Both the North and the South behavior was reprehensible -
both were wrong! I condemn the practice of both the slavers and those
who purchased slaves from the slavers.

>
Slave traders were from both the northern and southern states. But the
legal transatlantic slave trade ended in 1808, and by the time of the
war slavery was illegal in all the northern states. You can't equate the
culpability, and it's another argument used for the "Lost Cause". So I
have to ask why you're doing all that.
>
By the way, your arguments and claims here are every bit as sound as
your creationist arguments. It's a useful comparison.

I'm glad somebody whom others respect said that.
 

--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge