Re: Wistar Symposium "Mathematical Challenge to Neo-Darwinism".

On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 10:32:25 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com>
wrote:
 

On 2024-06-08 20:51:39 +0000, John Harshman said:
>

On 6/8/24 1:38 PM, Ron Dean wrote:

jillery wrote:

On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 11:24:58 -0400, Ron Dean
<rondean-noreply@gmail.com> wrote:
>

jillery wrote:

On Wed, 5 Jun 2024 12:42:57 -0400, Ron Dean
<rondean-noreply@gmail.com> wrote:
>

How many have you read pointing out the flaws
in evolutionary theory?

>
>
The problem with that question is you and other cdesign proponentsists
have a very flawed concept of what qualifies as flaws in evolutionary
theory.
>

IOW - None!

>
>
IOW - when someone says "stasis is the exact opposite of gradual
change", it shows they have no idea what the words even mean,
nevermind what they're talking about, nevermind what the people they
quote are talking about.
>

Then please explain precisely what Gould meant by stasis and equilibrium.

>
>
Why sure, just as soon as you explain precisely what you meant by
stasis and equilibrium.
>

I accepted Gould's definition, stasis means stability. He points out
that historically when paleontologist were faced with stasis they saw
it as "no data".
>
But as I recall, the scientist on Darwin's day pointed this out to
Darwin, so he was aware of this. But it was soon overlooked and ignored
by scientist while searching for evidence to support Darwin's theory. I
think that explains the "no data".
>
Equilibrium was preceded and followed stasis. So punctuated
equilibrium, as I understood Dr Gould's view, he saw periods of stasis
followed by punctuated (rapid appearance of new species (geologically
speaking)), then long spans of stasis (little or no change) then sudden
disappearance.
>
IOW stasis marked as an "x species" which was _punctuated_ (evolved
rapidly) into a new stable "y species".  He calls punctuated which is
not observe as _peripherical_isolatiates_.
If I wrong then please explain why.

>
Mostly OK, if oddly stated. A few problems
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1. "Sudden disappearance" is not in any way a part of the theory.
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2. You have the equilibrium part all wrong. The equilibrium is stasis.
>
3. The term is "peripheral isolates", adopted from Ernst Mayr, and I'm
not sure you know what they are. They're just small, geographically
isolated populations on the periphery of a species range.

>
Speciation in such cases can happen remarkably rapidly. On the island
of Madeira there are six races (the term they use, though they fit
Mayr's definition of species) of mice, that cannot breed either with
one another or with the common European mouse. They appear to have
evolved within the past 1000 years (if you assume they are descended
from mice introduced by the Vikings), or much less than that if they came with the Portuguese. (Madeira is an island with numerous deep
valleys separated by high ground that mice can't cross.)

  I like this example:
<https://science.sciencemag.org/content/359/6372/224>
  From the abstract:
*************************
Homoploid hybrid speciation in animals has been inferred frequently
from patterns of variation, but few examples have withstood critical
scrutiny. Here we report a directly documented example, from its
origin to reproductive isolation. An immigrant Darwin’s finch to
Daphne Major in the Galápagos archipelago initiated a new genetic
lineage by breeding with a resident finch (Geospiza fortis). Genome
sequencing of the immigrant identified it as a G. conirostris male
that originated on Española >100 kilometers from Daphne Major. From
the second generation onward, the lineage bred endogamously and,
despite intense inbreeding, was ecologically successful and showed
transgressive segregation of bill morphology. This example shows that
reproductive isolation, which typically develops over hundreds of
generations, can be established in only three.
*************************
 Not bad for a bunch of birdbrains.

  Some peripheral isolates are in fact observed. If you look at the
original publication, Eldredge N., Gould S.J. Punctuated equilibria: an
alternative to phyletic gradualism. In: Schopf T.J.M. editor. Models of
Paleobiology, 1972. p. 82-115, you will see that it produces a couple
of examples of peripheral isolates, notably in a trilobite, Phacops
rana.
>
4. You should know that punctuated equilibria is not very popular with
evolutionary biologists.

--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge