Re: OoL - out at first base?

Liste des GroupesRevenir à t origins 
Sujet : Re: OoL - out at first base?
De : cates_db (at) *nospam* hotmail.com (DB Cates)
Groupes : talk.origins
Date : 12. Dec 2024, 22:27:15
Autres entêtes
Organisation : University of Ediacara
Message-ID : <vjfkfj$pnot$1@solani.org>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 2024-12-12 12:46 p.m., LDagget wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 14:10:58 +0000, Martin Harran wrote:
 
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 19:12:36 +0000, j.nobel.daggett@gmail.com
(LDagget) wrote:
>
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 17:27:01 +0000, Martin Harran wrote:
>
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 08:32:42 -0800, erik simpson
<eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
On 12/10/24 11:32 PM, Martin Harran wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 13:57:43 -0800, erik simpson
<eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[snip for focus]
>
  Self-catalyzing time for a strand of RNA is probably on the order of
minutes.  A black smoker need only be present for few years, and the
early earth had a much hotter interior means that there were at least
millions of them.  As SJ Gould remarked "life may be as common as
quartz". Indeed.  All you need is hot water and a thermal or chemical
gradient and you're good to go.
>
If that is the case, why have we not seen any new life forms develop
from scratch in the last several billion years with every form of life
we know descending from a single origin?
>
I know the typical response is that in the early earth, there were
possibly numerous life forms with one dominant one devouring the
others but that seems a bit of a stretch; it doesn't explain why there
is no trace of anything developing in later stages and no one has ever
been able to create laboratory conditions that have allowed new life
to develop. Miller-Urey got as far as amino acids but that is a long
way from a life form.
>
Just to be clear, I am not endorsing MarkE's arguments; I'm simply
challenging the Gould statement and the "all you need" comment.
>
The new life forms don't have any ecological niches available, because
they're already occupied by fully adapted life.  You'd have to have some
strong advantage to prevail (it does happen, but rarely).
>
Hmmm .... lots of niches for the development of the many many millions
of life forms that have evolved over billions of years but no niches
available for new forms to evolve. As I said, sounds like a bit of a
stretch.
>
Only if you fail to think about it.
For new life it evolve, it has to have a significant supply of ready
food/energy to power its emerging metabolism. The initial chemical
hypercycles would not be expected to be efficient in the way they
convert
their primary energy source into the synthesis of derived chemical
structures like specific lipids and polymers.
>
Moreover, any such reservoir of protolife would be a rich feeding ground
for life that had already evolved.
>
All of which seems to contradict Gould's statement and Eric's comment
that all you need is hot water and a thermal or chemical gradient and
you're good to go - that is what I was challenging.
>
MarkE and his fellow ID travellers are wrong in trying to use the
exceptionality of OOL as some sort of proof of a Designer but that
doesn't change its exceptionality.
 No. It takes creative misreading to claim that.
Perhaps that's a bit harsh but if you don't really understand
the thermodynamics and kinetics of biochemistry --- sufficiently
to speculate intelligently about potential pathways towards
abiogenesis --- then attempting to understand what competent people
write is going to be very difficult.
 As for the "all you need" comment, it's fair to add something about
and time to 'evolve' without being eaten by life that beat you to it.
 
Even fairer to grant that, in context (OoL), that is a given. No need to be explicit.
--
--
Don Cates ("he's a cunning rascal" PN)

Date Sujet#  Auteur
9 Dec 24 * OoL – out at first base?117MarkE
9 Dec 24 +* Re: OoL – out at first base?18erik simpson
9 Dec 24 i`* Re: OoL – out at first base?17MarkE
9 Dec 24 i `* Re: OoL – out at first base?16erik simpson
10 Dec 24 i  +* Re: OoL – out at first base?3MarkE
10 Dec 24 i  i+- Re: OoL – out at first base?1erik simpson
10 Dec 24 i  i`- Re: OoL – out at first base?1jillery
11 Dec 24 i  +* Re: OoL – out at first base?2MarkE
11 Dec 24 i  i`- Re: OoL – out at first base?1erik simpson
11 Dec 24 i  `* Re: OoL - out at first base?10Martin Harran
11 Dec 24 i   +* Re: OoL - out at first base?7erik simpson
11 Dec 24 i   i`* Re: OoL - out at first base?6Martin Harran
11 Dec 24 i   i +- Re: OoL - out at first base?1erik simpson
11 Dec 24 i   i `* Re: OoL - out at first base?4LDagget
12 Dec 24 i   i  `* Re: OoL - out at first base?3Martin Harran
12 Dec 24 i   i   `* Re: OoL - out at first base?2LDagget
12 Dec 24 i   i    `- Re: OoL - out at first base?1DB Cates
11 Dec 24 i   `* Re: OoL - out at first base?2Ernest Major
11 Dec 24 i    `- Re: OoL - out at first base?1LDagget
9 Dec 24 +* Re: OoL – out at first base?9jillery
9 Dec 24 i+* Re: OoL – out at first base?6MarkE
9 Dec 24 ii+* Re: OoL ? out at first base?2aph
9 Dec 24 iii`- Re: OoL ? out at first base?1MarkE
9 Dec 24 ii`* Re: OoL – out at first base?3jillery
11 Dec 24 ii `* Re: OoL – out at first base?2MarkE
11 Dec 24 ii  `- Re: OoL – out at first base?1MarkE
16 Dec19:38 i`* Re: OoL – out at first base?2Mark Isaak
16 Dec21:23 i `- Re: OoL – out at first base?1Kerr-Mudd, John
9 Dec 24 +* Re: OoL – out at first base?7RonO
9 Dec 24 i`* Re: OoL – out at first base?6MarkE
10 Dec 24 i +- Re: OoL – out at first base?1RonO
10 Dec 24 i `* Re: OoL – out at first base?4erik simpson
11 Dec 24 i  `* Re: OoL - out at first base?3Martin Harran
11 Dec 24 i   `* Re: OoL - out at first base?2erik simpson
18 Dec12:36 i    `- Re: OoL - out at first base?1jillery
10 Dec 24 +* Re: Ool - out at first base?80Bob Casanova
11 Dec 24 i`* Re: Ool - out at first base?79MarkE
13 Dec 24 i +* Re: Ool - out at first base?70Ernest Major
13 Dec 24 i i`* Re: Ool - out at first base?69erik simpson
14 Dec 24 i i `* Re: Ool - out at first base?68MarkE
14 Dec 24 i i  +* Re: Ool - out at first base?2erik simpson
14 Dec 24 i i  i`- Re: Ool - out at first base?1MarkE
14 Dec 24 i i  `* Re: Ool - out at first base?65Martin Harran
14 Dec 24 i i   `* Re: Ool - out at first base?64MarkE
14 Dec 24 i i    +* Re: Ool - out at first base?62Martin Harran
14 Dec 24 i i    i`* Re: Ool - out at first base?61MarkE
14 Dec 24 i i    i +* Re: Ool - out at first base?52Martin Harran
15 Dec 24 i i    i i`* Re: Ool - out at first base?51MarkE
15 Dec 24 i i    i i `* Re: Ool - out at first base?50Martin Harran
15 Dec 24 i i    i i  +- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Martin Harran
15 Dec 24 i i    i i  `* Re: Ool - out at first base?48MarkE
15 Dec 24 i i    i i   `* Re: Ool - out at first base?47Martin Harran
16 Dec 24 i i    i i    `* Re: Ool - out at first base?46MarkE
16 Dec20:33 i i    i i     +* Re: Ool - out at first base?6Mark Isaak
18 Dec02:12 i i    i i     i`* Re: Ool - out at first base?5MarkE
18 Dec17:16 i i    i i     i `* Re: Ool - out at first base?4Mark Isaak
18 Dec17:49 i i    i i     i  +- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Martin Harran
19 Dec05:49 i i    i i     i  `* Re: Ool - out at first base?2MarkE
19 Dec17:35 i i    i i     i   `- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Mark Isaak
17 Dec14:07 i i    i i     `* Re: Ool - out at first base?39Martin Harran
17 Dec17:19 i i    i i      +* Re: Ool - out at first base?2erik simpson
17 Dec18:48 i i    i i      i`- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Martin Harran
18 Dec01:32 i i    i i      `* Re: Ool - out at first base?36MarkE
18 Dec15:17 i i    i i       `* Re: Ool - out at first base?35Martin Harran
18 Dec15:52 i i    i i        +- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Martin Harran
18 Dec18:17 i i    i i        +* Re: Ool - out at first base?2Ernest Major
19 Dec10:38 i i    i i        i`- Re: Ool - out at first base?1jillery
19 Dec04:10 i i    i i        `* Re: Ool - out at first base?31MarkE
19 Dec07:17 i i    i i         +* Re: Ool - out at first base?15Vincent Maycock
19 Dec07:33 i i    i i         i+* Re: Ool - out at first base?11MarkE
19 Dec19:50 i i    i i         ii`* Re: Ool - out at first base?10Vincent Maycock
19 Dec23:25 i i    i i         ii `* Re: Ool - out at first base?9MarkE
20 Dec00:32 i i    i i         ii  `* Re: Ool - out at first base?8Vincent Maycock
20 Dec02:42 i i    i i         ii   `* Re: Ool - out at first base?7MarkE
20 Dec03:23 i i    i i         ii    `* Re: Ool - out at first base?6Vincent Maycock
20 Dec05:08 i i    i i         ii     `* Re: Ool - out at first base?5MarkE
20 Dec06:10 i i    i i         ii      +* Re: Ool - out at first base?2Vincent Maycock
20 Dec23:45 i i    i i         ii      i`- Re: Ool - out at first base?1MarkE
21 Dec12:42 i i    i i         ii      +- Re: Ool - out at first base?1jillery
22 Dec21:46 i i    i i         ii      `- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Mark Isaak
19 Dec17:05 i i    i i         i`* Re: Ool - out at first base?3erik simpson
19 Dec19:53 i i    i i         i `* Re: Ool - out at first base?2Vincent Maycock
19 Dec23:08 i i    i i         i  `- Re: Ool - out at first base?1erik simpson
19 Dec11:04 i i    i i         +- Re: Ool - out at first base?1jillery
19 Dec15:56 i i    i i         +* Re: Ool - out at first base?13Martin Harran
19 Dec18:15 i i    i i         i+- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Martin Harran
19 Dec23:20 i i    i i         i`* Re: Ool - out at first base?11MarkE
19 Dec23:31 i i    i i         i +- Re: Ool - out at first base?1erik simpson
20 Dec18:24 i i    i i         i `* Re: Ool - out at first base?9Martin Harran
20 Dec18:44 i i    i i         i  +* Re: Ool - out at first base?2erik simpson
21 Dec00:02 i i    i i         i  i`- Re: Ool - out at first base?1MarkE
20 Dec23:59 i i    i i         i  `* Re: Ool - out at first base?6MarkE
21 Dec08:13 i i    i i         i   `* Re: Ool - out at first base?5Martin Harran
22 Dec19:12 i i    i i         i    `* Re: Ool - out at first base?4Martin Harran
22 Dec22:07 i i    i i         i     +* Re: Ool - out at first base?2William Hyde
23 Dec07:49 i i    i i         i     i`- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Martin Harran
22 Dec23:53 i i    i i         i     `- Re: Ool - out at first base?1jillery
19 Dec18:44 i i    i i         `- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Mark Isaak
14 Dec 24 i i    i `* Re: Ool - out at first base?8DB Cates
14 Dec 24 i i    i  +* Re: Ool - out at first base?6erik simpson
14 Dec 24 i i    i  i`* Re: Ool - out at first base?5Martin Harran
14 Dec 24 i i    i  `- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Ernest Major
16 Dec20:16 i i    `- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Mark Isaak
13 Dec 24 i `* Re: Ool - out at first base?8Bob Casanova
10 Dec 24 `* Re: OoL – out at first base?2Kerr-Mudd, John

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