Re: Ool - out at first base?

Liste des GroupesRevenir à t origins 
Sujet : Re: Ool - out at first base?
De : 69jpil69 (at) *nospam* gmail.com (jillery)
Groupes : talk.origins
Date : 22. Dec 2024, 23:53:04
Autres entêtes
Organisation : What are you looking for?
Message-ID : <1c5hmjdimojisu1m8p7b1fqng3ogqmi7dq@4ax.com>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
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On Sun, 22 Dec 2024 18:12:42 +0000, Martin Harran
<martinharran@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't know if you are still reading this but in case you are, I
thought of you today when I read this in a religious newsletter that I
subscribe to:


The author of the above doesn't explicitly identify who is the "you"
to whom he refers.  Even if one assumes an simplicity specific poster,
perhaps based on the post's relative position in a hierarchical sort,
this lack of explicit identifier negates any objection he may have to
others like myself replying to his post.


"Only the silliest of scientists would think they could find God in
the world or prove that God does not exist. Existence is a property of
things within the world. Pose the matter in those terms, and you might
as well admit, God does not exist.
>
No, in creating the world God establishes it so thoroughly in freedom
that many can deny the very existence of a creator. Looking for God in
the world is like looking for the novelist in the novel. He’s
everywhere and nowhere. Someone had to write the story, but she will
not be appearing on its pages."
>
(A Reflection for Fourth Sunday of Advent By Terrance Klein, a priest
of the Diocese of Dodge City and author of Vanity Faith.)


The quote above implies a common Creationist trope; as the existence
of a novel implies the existence of a Novelist, and the existence of
the "world" implies the existence of a "world" Creator.

This trope suffers from several fundamentally fatal flaws.  First, it
assumes a false equivalence, that all created objects are equivalent
to human manufactured objects like novels, and by so doing
inaccurately implies that Creators are necessarily conscious entities.
Unfortunately, it's almost certain that both the quote's author and
the post's author are well aware of countless items which are/were
created by unguided natural processes. 

One might charitably assume these authors allow a definition which
includes unguided natural processes as part of the "Creator" set. That
would lead to yet another fundamentally fatal flaw, as this would
allow God to have been created by unguided natural processes, and by
so doing negates the very argument the quote tries to make.

Typically Creationists make no such allowance, and instead assert God
always existed and so required no Creator.  Unfortunately, this leads
to yet another fundamentally fatal flaw, of circular reasoning.  To
argue that the world's existence implies God, necessarily also argues
that God's existence implies the existence of God's Creator, and so
moots their assertion. 

Typically Creationists work around this problem by asserting God as a
special case.  Unfortunately, this leads to yet another fundamentally
fatal flaw, of begging the question, which does nothing to eliminate
the fallacy.

Of course, the larger point is that proving a negative, ex. God
doesn't exist, is notoriously difficult.  My impression is that's why
Creationists like to accuse others of saying it.

--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge


Date Sujet#  Auteur
9 Dec 24 * OoL – out at first base?117MarkE
9 Dec 24 +* Re: OoL – out at first base?18erik simpson
9 Dec 24 i`* Re: OoL – out at first base?17MarkE
9 Dec 24 i `* Re: OoL – out at first base?16erik simpson
10 Dec 24 i  +* Re: OoL – out at first base?3MarkE
10 Dec 24 i  i+- Re: OoL – out at first base?1erik simpson
10 Dec 24 i  i`- Re: OoL – out at first base?1jillery
11 Dec 24 i  +* Re: OoL – out at first base?2MarkE
11 Dec 24 i  i`- Re: OoL – out at first base?1erik simpson
11 Dec 24 i  `* Re: OoL - out at first base?10Martin Harran
11 Dec 24 i   +* Re: OoL - out at first base?7erik simpson
11 Dec 24 i   i`* Re: OoL - out at first base?6Martin Harran
11 Dec 24 i   i +- Re: OoL - out at first base?1erik simpson
11 Dec 24 i   i `* Re: OoL - out at first base?4LDagget
12 Dec 24 i   i  `* Re: OoL - out at first base?3Martin Harran
12 Dec 24 i   i   `* Re: OoL - out at first base?2LDagget
12 Dec 24 i   i    `- Re: OoL - out at first base?1DB Cates
11 Dec 24 i   `* Re: OoL - out at first base?2Ernest Major
11 Dec 24 i    `- Re: OoL - out at first base?1LDagget
9 Dec 24 +* Re: OoL – out at first base?9jillery
9 Dec 24 i+* Re: OoL – out at first base?6MarkE
9 Dec 24 ii+* Re: OoL ? out at first base?2aph
9 Dec 24 iii`- Re: OoL ? out at first base?1MarkE
9 Dec 24 ii`* Re: OoL – out at first base?3jillery
11 Dec 24 ii `* Re: OoL – out at first base?2MarkE
11 Dec 24 ii  `- Re: OoL – out at first base?1MarkE
16 Dec19:38 i`* Re: OoL – out at first base?2Mark Isaak
16 Dec21:23 i `- Re: OoL – out at first base?1Kerr-Mudd, John
9 Dec 24 +* Re: OoL – out at first base?7RonO
9 Dec 24 i`* Re: OoL – out at first base?6MarkE
10 Dec 24 i +- Re: OoL – out at first base?1RonO
10 Dec 24 i `* Re: OoL – out at first base?4erik simpson
11 Dec 24 i  `* Re: OoL - out at first base?3Martin Harran
11 Dec 24 i   `* Re: OoL - out at first base?2erik simpson
18 Dec12:36 i    `- Re: OoL - out at first base?1jillery
10 Dec 24 +* Re: Ool - out at first base?80Bob Casanova
11 Dec 24 i`* Re: Ool - out at first base?79MarkE
13 Dec 24 i +* Re: Ool - out at first base?70Ernest Major
13 Dec 24 i i`* Re: Ool - out at first base?69erik simpson
14 Dec 24 i i `* Re: Ool - out at first base?68MarkE
14 Dec 24 i i  +* Re: Ool - out at first base?2erik simpson
14 Dec 24 i i  i`- Re: Ool - out at first base?1MarkE
14 Dec 24 i i  `* Re: Ool - out at first base?65Martin Harran
14 Dec 24 i i   `* Re: Ool - out at first base?64MarkE
14 Dec 24 i i    +* Re: Ool - out at first base?62Martin Harran
14 Dec 24 i i    i`* Re: Ool - out at first base?61MarkE
14 Dec 24 i i    i +* Re: Ool - out at first base?52Martin Harran
15 Dec 24 i i    i i`* Re: Ool - out at first base?51MarkE
15 Dec 24 i i    i i `* Re: Ool - out at first base?50Martin Harran
15 Dec 24 i i    i i  +- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Martin Harran
15 Dec 24 i i    i i  `* Re: Ool - out at first base?48MarkE
15 Dec 24 i i    i i   `* Re: Ool - out at first base?47Martin Harran
16 Dec 24 i i    i i    `* Re: Ool - out at first base?46MarkE
16 Dec20:33 i i    i i     +* Re: Ool - out at first base?6Mark Isaak
18 Dec02:12 i i    i i     i`* Re: Ool - out at first base?5MarkE
18 Dec17:16 i i    i i     i `* Re: Ool - out at first base?4Mark Isaak
18 Dec17:49 i i    i i     i  +- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Martin Harran
19 Dec05:49 i i    i i     i  `* Re: Ool - out at first base?2MarkE
19 Dec17:35 i i    i i     i   `- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Mark Isaak
17 Dec14:07 i i    i i     `* Re: Ool - out at first base?39Martin Harran
17 Dec17:19 i i    i i      +* Re: Ool - out at first base?2erik simpson
17 Dec18:48 i i    i i      i`- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Martin Harran
18 Dec01:32 i i    i i      `* Re: Ool - out at first base?36MarkE
18 Dec15:17 i i    i i       `* Re: Ool - out at first base?35Martin Harran
18 Dec15:52 i i    i i        +- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Martin Harran
18 Dec18:17 i i    i i        +* Re: Ool - out at first base?2Ernest Major
19 Dec10:38 i i    i i        i`- Re: Ool - out at first base?1jillery
19 Dec04:10 i i    i i        `* Re: Ool - out at first base?31MarkE
19 Dec07:17 i i    i i         +* Re: Ool - out at first base?15Vincent Maycock
19 Dec07:33 i i    i i         i+* Re: Ool - out at first base?11MarkE
19 Dec19:50 i i    i i         ii`* Re: Ool - out at first base?10Vincent Maycock
19 Dec23:25 i i    i i         ii `* Re: Ool - out at first base?9MarkE
20 Dec00:32 i i    i i         ii  `* Re: Ool - out at first base?8Vincent Maycock
20 Dec02:42 i i    i i         ii   `* Re: Ool - out at first base?7MarkE
20 Dec03:23 i i    i i         ii    `* Re: Ool - out at first base?6Vincent Maycock
20 Dec05:08 i i    i i         ii     `* Re: Ool - out at first base?5MarkE
20 Dec06:10 i i    i i         ii      +* Re: Ool - out at first base?2Vincent Maycock
20 Dec23:45 i i    i i         ii      i`- Re: Ool - out at first base?1MarkE
21 Dec12:42 i i    i i         ii      +- Re: Ool - out at first base?1jillery
22 Dec21:46 i i    i i         ii      `- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Mark Isaak
19 Dec17:05 i i    i i         i`* Re: Ool - out at first base?3erik simpson
19 Dec19:53 i i    i i         i `* Re: Ool - out at first base?2Vincent Maycock
19 Dec23:08 i i    i i         i  `- Re: Ool - out at first base?1erik simpson
19 Dec11:04 i i    i i         +- Re: Ool - out at first base?1jillery
19 Dec15:56 i i    i i         +* Re: Ool - out at first base?13Martin Harran
19 Dec18:15 i i    i i         i+- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Martin Harran
19 Dec23:20 i i    i i         i`* Re: Ool - out at first base?11MarkE
19 Dec23:31 i i    i i         i +- Re: Ool - out at first base?1erik simpson
20 Dec18:24 i i    i i         i `* Re: Ool - out at first base?9Martin Harran
20 Dec18:44 i i    i i         i  +* Re: Ool - out at first base?2erik simpson
21 Dec00:02 i i    i i         i  i`- Re: Ool - out at first base?1MarkE
20 Dec23:59 i i    i i         i  `* Re: Ool - out at first base?6MarkE
21 Dec08:13 i i    i i         i   `* Re: Ool - out at first base?5Martin Harran
22 Dec19:12 i i    i i         i    `* Re: Ool - out at first base?4Martin Harran
22 Dec22:07 i i    i i         i     +* Re: Ool - out at first base?2William Hyde
23 Dec07:49 i i    i i         i     i`- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Martin Harran
22 Dec23:53 i i    i i         i     `- Re: Ool - out at first base?1jillery
19 Dec18:44 i i    i i         `- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Mark Isaak
14 Dec 24 i i    i `* Re: Ool - out at first base?8DB Cates
14 Dec 24 i i    i  +* Re: Ool - out at first base?6erik simpson
14 Dec 24 i i    i  i`* Re: Ool - out at first base?5Martin Harran
14 Dec 24 i i    i  `- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Ernest Major
16 Dec20:16 i i    `- Re: Ool - out at first base?1Mark Isaak
13 Dec 24 i `* Re: Ool - out at first base?8Bob Casanova
10 Dec 24 `* Re: OoL – out at first base?2Kerr-Mudd, John

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