Re: Top three reasons for optimism about the ID scam

On 12/28/2024 7:33 AM, Martin Harran wrote:

I'm not going to repost all the crap you keep reposting as if that is
going to somehow make it better. In particular, you keep reposting the
charge against Galileo and the sentence he was given. It beats me why
you keep doing that. Galileo was charged with heresy and found guilty
of it, nobody is arguing that. The point is that it was a *trumped-up
charge* because heliocentrism was never a heresy. The Catholic Church
itself has admitted that and I have given you cites for several
esteemed historians outside of the Church who have thoroughly
investigated the affair and come to the same conclusion.
 You have not found a single recognised authority who says otherwise.
All you could come up with was a largely unknown attorney who is a
geocentrist and self-appointed apostate for the Catholic Church even
though he has no known scientific, historic or theological
qualifications. You thought you had found a second site supporting you
but that site completely contradicts you, stating unequivocally that
heliocentrism being a heresy is a total myth. You accuse me of quote
mining but is you who are doing that. You quote the charge against
Galileo stated on that site as if it was supporting your argument;
they only give it to show how wrong it was.
 You also try to make out that the New Advent article has been changed
in some way. It hasn't, it is and always has been an exact copy of
what was published in the Catholic Encyclopedia in 1907. If you
remember it having something different about the Index then that is
your faulty memory
 You also show a very poor grasp pf what heresy even means in the
Catholic Church. Your try to make out that it was something done
without the Pope's approval which simply can't happen; you also try to
make it out to be a "minor" heresy or not a formal one; there are no
such things. Something is either a heresy or it's not; trying to make
out otherwise is the equivalent claiming a woman is only a little bit
pregnant!
 

Removing everything that you can't deal with does not mean that it does not exist.  You and Nyikos have the same problem, removing the evidence does not do what you want it to do.  Everything that you snipped out can be verified.  One of the sources is your claimed reliable catholic source, and they all agree that you are just wrong.  Your source does not make the distinction between a formal heresy and just a heresy.  The other two sources did.  Your source just claims that it was a heresy when Galileo first faced the charge in 1615 and in 1633.  The anti neogeocentric catholic site admits that it was a formal heresy charge that Galileo faced in the 1616 inquisition judgement, but that, that judgement was not adopted by the 1633 court, and though Galileo is charged with heresy, the heresy is defined, and Galileo is found guilty, that it is never called a "formal" heresy in the sentencing.  Your more recent quote also makes the distinction between a formal and just a heresy, and like the anti neogeocentric site claims that the sentencing never calls what Galileo was charged with a "formal" heresy.
The presumed Salza site agrees that it was a formal heresy that Galileo faced in 1616, but also claims that it was a formal heresy in 1633.  The two sources that disagree with this do so in order to maintain papal infallibility.  They do not want the pope to be wrong about the heresy, so they have reinterpreted the 1633 Galileo affair.  The claim is that the 1616 charge of formal heresy was not adopted by the 1633 court. This seems to be an incorrect reinterpretation of the 1633 sentencing because their alternative claim is that Galileo was actually guilty of breaking his oath to the 1616 inquisition.  As stupid as it may seem if Galileo broke that oath he would have committed formal heresy as charged by the 1616 inquisition.
Removing the evidence and running away from it does not change reality.
All the sources agree that the 1541 council of Trent made heliocentrism into a heresy.  This is what Bruno faced.  Your source does not make the distinction between a formal heresy and and what Bruno faced, but it acknowledges that Galileo faced the charge of heresy in 1616 and 1633. The other two sources do make the distinction of a formal heresy, and both claim that it was a formal heresy when Galileo faced it in 1616, those two sources disagree as to whether it was a formal heresy for the 1633 court.  The 1633 sentencing calls it a heresy, defines the heresy, and finds Galileo guilty, but it is never written as "formal heresy" only "heresy".  That is the reality of the situation.
Ron Okimoto