Re: Paradoxes

On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 23:35:02 +1100, MarkE <me22over7@gmail.com> wrote:

On 21/01/2025 11:34 pm, Martin Harran wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jan 2025 14:24:47 +1100, MarkE <me22over7@gmail.com> wrote:
 

On 20/01/2025 8:47 pm, Martin Harran wrote:

Your position seems to be described by this. Would you express it
differently?

My position is that life originates from God but it wasn't a case of
him saying "Right, I want to make man in my image, let's see how far I
get fiddling about with these atoms and particles."

>
In originating life, in which of these categories would you place God's
action?
>
0. Instantaneous creation of all lifeforms (full intervention)
1. Speciation "download" etc (significant interventions; detectable)
2. Nudging the molecules (subtle interventions; detectable in principle)
3. Quantum event loading (probabilistic interventions; undetectable?)
4. Pure front-loading (initial intervention only; undetectable)

 
I don't think it is any of those because they are all some form of
direct intervention.
 
My own ideas are that everything we class as matter originally flowed
from God in spirit form, an energy-like amorphous existence. Somehow,
that got split away from God at what we call the Big Bang.  That
spirit, however, "wants" to return to its original state with God; I
use quote marks because I don't like resorting to anthropomorphism but
I can't think  of a better word to describe it. Whatever the best way
of describing it, that inherent characteristic is what encouraged the
formation of atoms which assembled together into molecules, molecules
assembling into matter and so on.
 
The analogy I would use here is the old schooldays experiment with
iron filings.  Scatter some iron filings onto a sheet of paper and
they will be completely random in where they fall - the chances of
them forming any distinct pattern are beyond calculation. Place a bar
magnet under the paper, however, and give the paper a few taps to
disturb the iron filings and see how they move into curved lines
following the magnet's lines of force. The magnet isn't in any way
directly intervening with the iron filings - it is physically
separated from them by the paper. There is nothing telling the
individual filings where to move to or which line of force to follow;
all that is random, but the underlying magnetic force does draw them
into a distinct pattern.
 
In a similar way, I think that attraction to God was what caused OOL
in the first place and the ongoing process of evolution as in line
with Teilhard de Chardin's idea of
attraction->connection->complexity->consciousness->awareness,
eventually leading to his Omega point which I think is the reunion of
*everything* with God.
 

>
Your description of creation uses different language to biblical
accounts, but has a resonance with them I think, e.g. the notion of God
speaking the universe into existence.

Are you a biblical literalist? If not, then what problem do you see
with my not using biblical language? if you are a literalist, then we
really are poles apart and very unlikely indeed to have any common
basis for discussing this stuff. It would be useful to sort that out
before I waste any further time on a fruitless task.

>
Your idea of a kind of "god field" as an invisible hand organizing
matter is interesting. Orthodox Christianity teaches that all things
hold together moment by moment only because God is acting constantly to
make this happen: "He [Christ] is before all things, and in him all
things hold together." (Colossians 1:17)
>
I was reading about panschychism recently, which suggests that all
entities, even the smallest particles, possess some degree of
consciousness. Teilhard de Chardin's ideas relating to consciousness may
have significant overlap with this? But that's another rabbit hole.
>
>