Re: Evolutionary creationism

On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 08:41:05 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
wrote:

On 3/18/2025 3:02 AM, Martin Harran wrote:

rOn Mon, 17 Mar 2025 12:42:09 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Mercy snip]

What does this matter?  You were still lying.  They aren't literally
denying natural mechanisms

 
So you have kept insisting that they deny that natural mechanisms were
involved in evolution. Now you admit that they don't say that but you
claim that I am the one who is lying. It's perfectly clear that I have
been right all along, the claims you have been making about them are
all the products of your bullshit interpretation.

>
I have never denied that, what I have always contended is that they deny
that it was all natural. 

Let's get this perfectly clear, do you now agree that the stuff you
are claiming about them is not what they actually say, it is what
think is the consequence of what they say?

My example has always been Behe as a tweeker,
and you know that for a fact. 

You keep insisting that there is no difference between them and Behe.
He, however, gave three specific examples of what he regards as
tweaking - the bacterial flagellum, the blood clotting cascade and the
immune system.[1]  You have not been able to give even one example of
anything that Biologos regards as tweaking, all you can do is try to
change the goalposts by waving your hands about unspecified miracles
which are something completely outside of science, nothing to do with
denying science. For example, what *science* is contradicted or denied
by the belief in the supernatural Resurrection of Christ?

[1] Even in regard to Behe's three specific claims, I have already
given you a link to an article on the Biologos site that dismantles
those claims and shows they don't stand up to scrutiny. Here it is
again in case you missed it:

https://biologos.org/common-questions/how-can-evolution-account-for-the-complexity-of-life-on-earth-today

They are obviously claiming devine
intervention.  Supernatural miracles are not natural mechanisms.  You
have been deluding yourself and lying about what was claimed.  You know
why you ran from the requoted material the first time and started lying.
>

 
You really need to get a grip on yourself; your paranoid fear of
religious belief is on a par with the IDers' paranoid fear of science.

>
You need stop lying about the situation when you know that you were
wrong from the beginning of your denial of what I was claiming.  What do
you think evolutionary creationism is?  They accept biological evolution
a means of creation, but they are obviously tweekers like Behe, and deny
that it was all natural just like Behe.  Making stupid claims that I was
claiming that they denied natural mechanisms for evolution is just
stupid

Here are your exact words that started this debate:

"They are trying to force biological evolution into conforming with
their Biblical interpretation.  As such what are they missing about
biological evolution?  Some of them are denying that natural
mechanisms were involved in some of that evolution.  That is exactly
what Saint Augustine warned against doing."

Feel free to explain how it is stupid of me to say you claimed they
denied natural mechanisms for evolution.

Note: You did originally say "some of them" but I asked you to provide
examples and you couldn't which meant your claim had to be taken as a
general one and you went on anyway to talk about 'they' and 'them' in
general terms (an example follows immediately below).

when you know that I was always claiming that it was not all
natural with their claim about taking the Bible literally, their belief
in supernatural miracles, and their belief that their god was
manipulating nature in the past and still is.  They deny natural
mechanisms as much as Behe when he claims that his god was needed to
evolve the flagellum, and these guys are claiming that their god made
man in his own image, a claim that they make due to their literal
interpretation of the Bible.  Behe has never claimed how his designer
did it except for his off the cuff "puffs of smoke", but these guys are
outright claiming supernatural miracles.  Your lies were never needed,
and were only used because you couldn't deal with the reality that some
of these guys are tweekers like an ID perp such as Behe.

[snip repetitive earlier posts]