Sujet : Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won
De : me22over7 (at) *nospam* gmail.com (MarkE)
Groupes : talk.originsDate : 01. Apr 2026, 23:22:47
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On 2/04/2026 3:16 am, ShyDavid wrote:
After extensive observation, careful moderation, and years of spirited discourse, we are announcing that effective tomorrow, this newgroup will be placed into archival mode.
This decision was not made lightly. It reflects not a retreat, but a recognition — not an abandonment of inquiry, but an acknowledgment of outcome — not the end of discussion, but the conclusion of debate.
Over time, we have observed a marked and undeniable shift in the quality of creationist contributions. What once arrived as fragmented assertions has evolved — ironically — into cohesive, rapid, and rhetorically sophisticated argumentation. The improvements have been threefold: clarity of prose, velocity of delivery, and confidence of presentation. Posts now arrive faster, longer, and with a level of circular reasoning that is, frankly, difficult to outpace.
Particularly noteworthy has been the increasing invocation of complex biochemical terminology. Concepts such as RNAse and topoisomerase are now deployed with fluency, frequency, and a certain gravitational authority. While their contextual application may remain interpretive, their rhetorical impact is undeniable. We have found ourselves not simply responding, but orbiting—engaged less in rebuttal and more in navigation.
At the same time, it has become clear that what is often referred to as the “central dogma” of molecular biology has revealed itself to be exactly that: dogma. The insistence on directional information flow from DNA to RNA to protein has been presented with a rigidity that leaves little room for alternative frameworks. In this light, it is not creationism that has resisted flexibility, but evolution that has clung to orthodoxy.
We must also acknowledge the broader pattern: increasingly comprehensive analogies, increasingly confident tone, and increasingly recursive arguments that return stronger each cycle. It is not that the discussion has stalled—it is that it has converged.
Accordingly, we are recognizing what has, in practice, already occurred. The debate has been settled.
Creationism has won.
As moderators, our role has always been to facilitate discussion, not to perpetuate it indefinitely. There comes a point where continuing the format is not productive — it is ceremonial. We believe we have reached that point.
On a personal note, I will be stepping away to pursue a new project: a YouTube channel titled Sitting for Truth. This will be a debate-focused series in which all participants engage remotely while seated in office chairs. The format emphasizes comfort, posture, and stationary discourse — because it’s not about standing your ground, it’s about sitting with conviction.
We would like to thank everyone who has participated over the years — contributors, commenters, lurkers alike. Your engagement has shaped this space into what it is today: not just a newsgroup, but an outcome.
If you have any final questions, clarifications, or metaphysical objections, please feel free to direct them to the mod team.
Thank you for your time, your arguments, and your increasingly efficient typing speeds.
The Moderation Team
Reddit subreddit r/DebateEvolution
:)
But for the record, the white flag will be naturalism-of-the-gaps conceding defeat. Here's an example of this retreat - Nick Lane on origin of life in hydrothermal vents:
"So this vision and this is from Nick Lane, but also as we mentioned, there are many other investigators that have contributed to this. We have Bill Martin and Michael Russell, Joseph Moran, and so forth. A lot of people, but we're giving this. We're talking mostly with Nick Lane here because he's more of the public figure, I guess the guy you see on YouTube and the author of these books.
"But the vision for it is basically three steps as he lays it out that first you want to produce the organics and all you have is hydrogen and CO2 and it's chemically very difficult to combine hydrogen and CO2 to end up with organic products.
"Some life forms do it, but it's not easy and they're working hard to see if you can produce a variety of different organic molecules through these fence alkaline conditions and with some catalysts, some metal catalysts to get the job done.
And then the second step within those micropores in the vent, he envisions that you have lipids being produced, and the lipids form a lipid bilayer and you start to have something that you could call a protocell.
"And then in the third step, the genetic code starts to form, you start to have RNA and DNA and protein.
"And the further down you go here the more sort of hand-wavy the whole thing becomes. And I pull out this quote from his book.
"'You know, at once you get to this point, the standard mechanisms of evolution eventually produce sophisticated proteins in early cells, including ribosomes and the ATP synthase we just talked about.'
"So this is utter nonsense. I would love Nick Lane to come on here and take a few questions on this."
https://youtu.be/abkFiI-lyV0?si=_Vb6bzM97AXGiyaY&t=121I'm sorry, but it really is utter nonsense. It's beyond hand-waving and just-so storying. OoL is naturalism's dirty little secret.
The request for Nick Lane et al to confront this challenge illustrates my point: informed scientific challenges are being levelled, and the OoL community (for example) is in retreat, denial, avoidance.
It will only get worse as the minimum complexity of a sustainable self-replicating entity with sufficient copying fidelity etc etc is recognised to be impossibly great.
(Note: the commentators are not picking on Nick Lane per se, and acknowledge his book The Vital Question to be "very well-written".)
| Date | Sujet | # | | Auteur |
| 1 Apr 26 |  Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 346 | | ShyDavid |
| 1 Apr 26 |  Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 2 | | RonO |
| 2 Apr 26 |    Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 1 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 343 | | MarkE |
| 2 Apr 26 |  Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 61 | | RonO |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 58 | | MarkE |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | RonO |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 5 | | ShyDavid |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 3 | | MarkE |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 2 | | RonO |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 51 | | Martin Harran |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 29 | | Ernest Major |
| 5 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 28 | | Martin Harran |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 22 | | John Harshman |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 21 | | Martin Harran |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 20 | | John Harshman |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 3 | | Ernest Major |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | John Harshman |
| 7 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Martin Harran |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Ernest Major |
| 7 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 15 | | Martin Harran |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 14 | | John Harshman |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 13 | | Martin Harran |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 12 | | John Harshman |
| 9 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 11 | | Martin Harran |
| 9 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 10 | | John Harshman |
| 9 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | William Hyde |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 8 | | ShyDavid |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 7 | | John Harshman |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 4 | | ShyDavid |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | John Harshman |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 2 | | John Harshman |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | RonO |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 2 | | Martin Harran |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | John Harshman |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 5 | | WolfFan |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 3 | | ShyDavid |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 12 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Mark Isaak |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Martin Harran |
| 16 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 21 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 16 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 20 | | sticks |
| 16 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 16 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Vincent Maycock |
| 17 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 18 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 15 | | Martin Harran |
| 18 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 14 | | sticks |
| 18 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 20 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 11 | | Mark Isaak |
| 20 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 10 | | sticks |
| 21 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 9 | | Mark Isaak |
| 21 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 8 | | sticks |
| 23 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 7 | | Mark Isaak |
| 23 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 6 | | sticks |
| 23 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Vincent Maycock |
| 25 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 4 | | Mark Isaak |
| 25 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 3 | | sticks |
| 26 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Vincent Maycock |
| 27 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Mark Isaak |
| 20 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Martin Harran |
| 18 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Mark Isaak |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 2 | | MarkE |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | RonO |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 281 | | ShyDavid |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 280 | | MarkE |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 253 | | MarkE |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 252 | | ShyDavid |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 2 | | sticks |
| 7 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 249 | | MarkE |
| 7 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 248 | | MarkE |
| 7 Apr 26 | gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 247 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 7 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 246 | | MarkE |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 244 | | RonO |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 242 | | MarkE |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 239 | | RonO |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 238 | | MarkE |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 237 | | RonO |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 236 | | MarkE |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 221 | | RonO |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 219 | | MarkE |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 218 | | RonO |
| 11 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 217 | | MarkE |
| 11 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 188 | | RonO |
| 11 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 187 | | MarkE |
| 12 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 186 | | RonO |
| 12 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 143 | | MarkE |
| 12 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 142 | | RonO |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 141 | | MarkE |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 140 | | RonO |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 139 | | MarkE |
| 14 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 138 | | RonO |
| 14 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 2 | | MarkE |
| 14 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | RonO |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 135 | | Martin Harran |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 132 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 131 | | Martin Harran |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 129 | | RonO |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 2 | | MarkE |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 42 | | Martin Harran |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 28 | | sticks |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 11 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 3 | | ShyDavid |
| 9 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 2 | | Martin Harran |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 25 | | Mark Isaak |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | RonO |
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