Sujet : Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won
De : specimenNOSPAM (at) *nospam* curioustaxon.omy.net (Mark Isaak)
Groupes : talk.originsDate : 27. Apr 2026, 17:51:34
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <10so46o$2hor0$1@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
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On 4/25/26 3:28 PM, sticks wrote:
Apologies in advance for lack of snipping. I'll try to do some, but suspect a lot of unnecessary backlog will be kept.
On 4/25/2026 11:30 AM, Mark Isaak wrote:
On 4/23/26 7:10 AM, sticks wrote:
On 4/22/2026 9:54 PM, Mark Isaak wrote:
[...]
Specifically, what did God create,
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Everything.
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So you accept that God created death and suffering, including diseases such as pertussis, schizophrenia, cancer, and arthritis. Some people give credit for that to Satan, or even Adam and/or Eve.
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Again, I'm fairly certain you know the Christian response to this, but I will go a little further than even that.
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I know several different Christian responses, including the one you gave. (And I very much appreciate your giving it; thank you.) I also know some problems with most of those responses.
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I have come to believe that not only does God allow death and suffering, he knew it would all happen before he began creation. So why allow it then? Because the whole point in creating us, was to create something that didn't exist without life forms like us. Though God has aseity, he must have seen the value in giving free will to us and allowing for Love to come into existence. It is the greatest and most valuable thing there is in the universe. Love is the reason for everything!
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Is there free will in Heaven?
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(I'm surprised I don't see that question more often. It raises all sorts of important theological issues.)
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Of course, there has to be. What would the point be otherwise.
What heaven and hell are exactly is the question. I don't spend a lot of time on it because I believe it must be good. But I'll give an example to show the main difference. On earth you can ignore God with seemingly no consequences in your daily life. If you choose to reject God and end up in "hell" that is entirely different. You get to spend all of eternity in complete separation from God, absolutely knowing finally that God is real, and there is no way to ever be near him. Eternal separation from the love of God. Horrible.
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But having free will was the start of all the problems. Allowing free will in Heaven means allowing problems in Heaven. Or maybe people (souls?) who have been in Heaven for a while get kicked down to Hell on a regular basis as they choose wrongly?
As I said above, I don't spend a lot of time investigating concepts of heaven and hell.
I believe that is part of a wider problem. Creationists don't spend much time looking at the logical implications of their beliefs.
That said, the point of my example was really for the opposite of choosing wrongly. I can't fully understand what the afterlife is, but I get the impression once you are immersed with the power, goodness, and love of God, you probably aren't gong to be spending your time thinking of how you can do wrong. I'm willing to just wait and see.
What you describe sounds a lot like the practical elimination of free will. Making someone not want to choose wrong is making them not free to choose wrong.
(My opinion, if you care, is that free will is a non-issue, since having free will is indistinguishable from not having free will.)
[...]
So yeah, creation was perfect and without suffering and death initially. Adam's sin changed all that. God did not create the pain and suffering, we did.
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That's a huge problem for me. What is the mechanism by which eating a fruit creates bot flies, brambles, bubonic plague, and bracket fungus? I don't buy it. Changes on that scale had to have divine agency behind it, if it happened in less than 100 million years. And, as I alluded to, such profound change amounts to a second Creation, which you deny happened.
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All of creation groans. We had free will. The option to live sinfully was there in the beginning. We chose it. God allowed us to live with our choice and the corruption of everything began.
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You seem to think that free will gives someone unlimited godlike power.
You know that's not my position.
I don't know what your position is. I think you're saying that Adam sinned, and suddenly the world turned into something radically different. I can accept that Adam was the motivation for the change, but what was the instrument of the change? Adam did not have the ability to do it, and you have arbitrarily ruled out evolution. As best I figure, that leaves god to do it -- either the god you call God, or the lesser god (in some Christian interpretations) called Satan. Either one is theologically problematic, to say the least.
[...]
Free will did not create the second creation after the Fall. A god had to have done that. And yes, it most definitely was a second creation you describe. A "creation" refers to the deliberate origin of anything significant (animals, mountains, constellations), not just a universe. The origin of death and all the new species and adaptations that go with it certainly qualifies.
Obviously, I don't know exactly how it was done. Like everything created, information is the key.
That's a cop-out. I have the information for how to cook creme brulee, but I have never once cooked it. For creation, putting stuff together is the key.
My guess is that all the information for both pleasant and unpleasant things were included in the initial creation. We still have a long way to go in understanding the genetic code. Did God throw a switch once man rebelled to turn on the unpleasant? Hell, I don't know. All I do know is he said his creation was complete after day 6. Everything since is his providence. I'll take his word for it.
And yet he was wrong. The world was re-created after day 6.
(At least according to your view. I happen to believe that death was part of the original creation, "and it was good.")
[...]
People don't get malaria because they have free will; they get malaria because God created plasmodium protozoans to infect them. If God eradicated Plasmodium, people would still have free will, AND they would stop suffering and dying from malaria.
God didn't specifically create disease.
Ever hear creationists talk about the bacterial flagellum, and how it is too complex for anything but God to create? The bacterial flagellum is just one small part of the vast and far more complex ecology of disease. The choices on the table are that God specifically created disease, or evolution did. If you don't have another option, which of those two do you choose?
He allows it because we broke the rules and allowed it into our lives. If he did what you suggest it would just be a care free world of puppets. You seem to want him to turn a blind eye to sin because it causes suffering. He can't do that in this life. That was the whole purpose of the death and resurrection of Christ.
That brings up another issue: fairness. If my grandfather robbed a store, it is fair that I be imprisoned, too? But that point of theology has little relevance to origins, so I won't delve into it.
[big snip]
I've already given you my process of getting to where I am at today. As I said, unless and until someone can answer the origin of the universe or the origin of life by naturalistic means acceptably, I think it is logical to consider an intelligent designer in the equation.
So let's go ahead and start with that one, again.
The answers to those two questions (origin of life and of the universe) are simple: I don't know, and probably nobody does yet. You probably don't find that answer fully satisfying. Neither do I, in a sense. Unlike you, however, I view the "don't know" answer as an opportunity to investigate, to learn more and more about the issues. I don't erect a Supernatural Answer as a roadblock to cut it all off.
"Truth walks toward us on the paths of our questions. As soon as you think you have the answer, you have closed the path and may miss vital new information." - Jacqueline Winspear
-- Mark Isaak"Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'Thatdoesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell
| Date | Sujet | # | | Auteur |
| 1 Apr 26 |  Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 346 | | ShyDavid |
| 1 Apr 26 |  Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 2 | | RonO |
| 2 Apr 26 |    Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 1 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 343 | | MarkE |
| 2 Apr 26 |  Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 61 | | RonO |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 58 | | MarkE |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | RonO |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 5 | | ShyDavid |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 3 | | MarkE |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 2 | | RonO |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 51 | | Martin Harran |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 29 | | Ernest Major |
| 5 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 28 | | Martin Harran |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 22 | | John Harshman |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 21 | | Martin Harran |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 20 | | John Harshman |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 3 | | Ernest Major |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | John Harshman |
| 7 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Martin Harran |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Ernest Major |
| 7 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 15 | | Martin Harran |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 14 | | John Harshman |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 13 | | Martin Harran |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 12 | | John Harshman |
| 9 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 11 | | Martin Harran |
| 9 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 10 | | John Harshman |
| 9 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | William Hyde |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 8 | | ShyDavid |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 7 | | John Harshman |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 4 | | ShyDavid |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | John Harshman |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 2 | | John Harshman |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | RonO |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 2 | | Martin Harran |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | John Harshman |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 5 | | WolfFan |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 3 | | ShyDavid |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 12 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Mark Isaak |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Martin Harran |
| 16 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 21 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 16 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 20 | | sticks |
| 16 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 16 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Vincent Maycock |
| 17 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 18 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 15 | | Martin Harran |
| 18 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 14 | | sticks |
| 18 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 20 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 11 | | Mark Isaak |
| 20 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 10 | | sticks |
| 21 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 9 | | Mark Isaak |
| 21 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 8 | | sticks |
| 23 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 7 | | Mark Isaak |
| 23 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 6 | | sticks |
| 23 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Vincent Maycock |
| 25 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 4 | | Mark Isaak |
| 25 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 3 | | sticks |
| 26 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Vincent Maycock |
| 27 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Mark Isaak |
| 20 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Martin Harran |
| 18 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Mark Isaak |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 2 | | MarkE |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | RonO |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 281 | | ShyDavid |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 280 | | MarkE |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 253 | | MarkE |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 252 | | ShyDavid |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 2 | | sticks |
| 7 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 249 | | MarkE |
| 7 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 248 | | MarkE |
| 7 Apr 26 | gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 247 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 7 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 246 | | MarkE |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 244 | | RonO |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 242 | | MarkE |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 239 | | RonO |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 238 | | MarkE |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 237 | | RonO |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 236 | | MarkE |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 221 | | RonO |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 219 | | MarkE |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 218 | | RonO |
| 11 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 217 | | MarkE |
| 11 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 188 | | RonO |
| 11 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 187 | | MarkE |
| 12 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 186 | | RonO |
| 12 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 143 | | MarkE |
| 12 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 142 | | RonO |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 141 | | MarkE |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 140 | | RonO |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 139 | | MarkE |
| 14 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 138 | | RonO |
| 14 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 2 | | MarkE |
| 14 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | RonO |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 135 | | Martin Harran |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 132 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 131 | | Martin Harran |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 129 | | RonO |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 2 | | MarkE |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 42 | | Martin Harran |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 28 | | sticks |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 11 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 3 | | ShyDavid |
| 9 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 2 | | Martin Harran |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 25 | | Mark Isaak |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | RonO |
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