Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)

On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 21:00:01 -0700, Mark Isaak
<specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:

On 4/26/26 2:32 PM, Martin Harran wrote:

 
A few weeks ago, I referred Mark to  a Scientific American article
back in February that fairly well sums up the state of the game in
research into consciousness. Here is a non-paywalled link to the
article; well worth a read if you have an interest in this subject.
 
https://archive.is/1k2ej

>
I had lost that link and have not read the article until now. Thank you
for reposting it. Here are my thoughts on it:
>
Overall, it looks like a good summary. I didn't know all the different
models and approaches myself, so I can't comment on them, but it jibes
with what else I have read. The only hypothesis I see the article left
out is quantum theories, regarding which: good riddance. One quote in
the article is very much an overstatement: Demertzi is quoted saying,
"Everything comes down to it [consciousness], everything." Kidney
function does not come down to consciousness, nor does your fingertips
wrinkling after long immersion in water. But that's a quibble.
>
The article says that the researchers don't agree on a definition of
consciousness, but, frustratingly, it does not give any definitions nor
describe the differences. Since definition is fundamental to the
problem, especially as it might apply to AI (which the article considers
at some length), this is a major omission.

I've just finished reading 'The Light Eaters' by Zoë Schlanger. It is
a thoroughly fascinating book and I hope at some stage to get time to
write a detailed review of it but briefly, it identifies behaviours in
plants that if they were identified in any animal species would be
regarded as signs of consciousness and intelligence. They include
things like communication, memory, altruism, kin selection and
mimicry.

Basically, botanists talk about this openly among themselves but not
externally. The reluctance to discuss it externally is due to the
ridicule and opprobrium that they would likely get from the wider
scientific community especially those involved in neurology who
dominate the research into consciousness. The author puts some of that
down to the dreadful book 'The Secret Life Of Plants' published in
1973 which effectively poisoned the well for rational discussion of
plant intelligence by making stupid claims like plants preferring
Beethoven to rock 'n' roll and reacting to a polygraph when someone
imagined setting them on fire.

The main scientific issue, however, is that neurologists insist that
consciousness is driven entirely by the brain. Plants have neither a
brain nor a nervous system and botanists have come to the general
conclusion that consciousness may be a "whole-body" thing. That idea
is now getting some support in animal biology with increasing
understanding of how much of a role microbes play in determining
behaviour and personality, particularly with the discovery that
transplanting microbes can result in behavioural transfers.

e.g. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7294648/

Mind you, I don't think the idea that consciousness as a whole-body
thing will come as any great surprise to anyone who has felt their
heart broken by grief, their stomach fluttering with butterflies or
their bowels clenching with fear.

Date	Sujet	#		Auteur
18 Apr 26	Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	75		Mark Isaak
18 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	18		RonO
18 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	16		ShyDavid
18 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	14		RonO
21 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	2		ShyDavid
4 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Pro Plyd
4 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	11		Pro Plyd
4 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	9		RonO
4 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	8		Vincent Maycock
5 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	7		RonO
5 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	6		Vincent Maycock
8 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	5		sticks
8 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	3		Ernest Major
8 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	2		sticks
8 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		RonO
8 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Vincent Maycock
5 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Mark Isaak
4 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Pro Plyd
4 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Pro Plyd
20 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	56		Martin Harran
20 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	10		ShyDavid
21 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	9		Martin Harran
21 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	4		ShyDavid
21 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	3		Martin Harran
27 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	2		Jim Jackson
27 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Martin Harran
24 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	4		David Canzi
26 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	3		Martin Harran
28 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	2		David Canzi
28 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Samuel Spade
20 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	9		Mark Isaak
21 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		ShyDavid
21 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	7		Martin Harran
21 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	6		Mark Isaak
22 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	4		Martin Harran
23 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	3		Mark Isaak
26 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	2		Martin Harran
28 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Mark Isaak
4 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Pro Plyd
21 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	36		sticks
23 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	23		sticks
24 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Mark Isaak
26 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	21		Martin Harran
28 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	20		Mark Isaak
28 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	18		Martin Harran
28 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	16		Ernest Major
28 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	10		Martin Harran
30 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	6		Mark Isaak
30 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	5		Martin Harran
1 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	4		Mark Isaak
7 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	3		Martin Harran
7 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Ernest Major
8 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Mark Isaak
1 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	3		Ernest Major
7 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	2		Martin Harran
7 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Ernest Major
28 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	5		Martin Harran
1 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	4		Ernest Major
7 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	3		Martin Harran
7 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		John Harshman
7 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Ernest Major
1 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Mark Isaak
28 Apr 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		RonO
13 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	12		sticks
14 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		sticks
14 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	6		sticks
14 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Vincent Maycock
16 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	2		MarkE
16 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Don Cates
21 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	2		Kerr-Mudd, John
21 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		sticks
21 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	4		Martin Harran
21 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	3		sticks
22 May 26	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Vincent Maycock
23 May12:07	Re: Grand Canyon was carved by Flood (well, a flood anyway)	1		Kerr-Mudd, John

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