Sujet : Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won
De : martinharran (at) *nospam* gmail.com (Martin Harran)
Groupes : talk.originsDate : 28. Jun 2026, 14:42:25
Autres entêtes
Organisation : University of Ediacara
Message-ID : <jq324ltdahpd5o9lmfav4gi9evol13q8bu@4ax.com>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
User-Agent : ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
On Tue, 23 Jun 2026 19:08:29 -0500, RonO <
rokimoto557@gmail.com>
wrote:
On 6/23/2026 10:44 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jun 2026 13:11:18 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
wrote:
On 6/21/2026 9:53 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jun 2026 08:43:28 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
On 6/21/2026 12:31 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>
[…]
>
>
Another esteemed scholar bites the dust …. our Ron knows better than
any of them.
>
>
One of your esteemed scholars lied about the situation in 1616.
>
So you keep saying …. pity you have never been able to identify the
scholar or the lie.
>
>
You just snipped it out and ran from you putting up the quote, and
running from finding out that your source had lied.
I couldn't snip what doesn't exist. Do you really not grasp how
pathetic it makes you look when you insist that an esteemed scholars
lied but you can't identify the scholar in question?
>
You seem to be insane and cannot deal with reality. You just snipped
your claims out.
>
From the initial REPOST 1 before more of your prevarications had been
added to the REPOST:
>
QUOTE
The one that cites von Gebler ("Galileo Galilei"):
>
"The Church never condemned it (the Copernican system) at all, for the
Qualifiers of the Holy Office never mean the Church."
END QUOTE:
>
This quote comes from a post where you were running from your source
having been found to be wrong. You then snipped and ran when I put up
the evidence that your source had lied in my response to your initial
running.
>
You claimed that the quote came from von Gebler.
>
It turned out that von Gebler had lied, and that the Pope had, had
heliocentrism condemned in 1616.
No Gerber didn't lie, he was totally correct in what he said. You have
so badly understood so much of this whole affair that it Is hard to
know where to start but I'll just deal with a some main issues.
First of all, the only people who ever claimed that heliocentrism was
heretical were the 'Qualifiers' who were appointed to consider the
matter. Leaving aside the ambiguity in their conclusions, those
conclusions were simply an *opinion* given by them and carried no
authority of any kind whatseover.
The Pope never condemned heliocentrism; all he did was first of all to
verbally inform Galileo of the Qualifiers' conclusions and tell him to
stop making his claims about heliocentrism. There is no official
record of exactly what was said by the Pope or Bellarmine but it is
clear from everything that followed that what was banned was claiming
that heliocentrism was conclusive rather than hypothetical.
The Pope then gave permission for publication of the decree by the
Congregation of the Index.to be published. That decree made no
condemnation of heliocentrism or any reference to it being heretical -
it's role was simply to decide what books should be added to the Index
and it banned a number of books at its meeting, only two of which were
related to heliocentrism but were not banned because of that; they
were banned because they sought to interpret Scripture which was a
right strictly preserved to the Vatican and its appointed authorities.
In regard to Copernicus, it simply *suspended* his book 'Revolutions'
pending a number of edits; none of those edits changed the core
arguments of the book, they only involved removal of some passing
references to Scripture and some minor text edits to clarify that it
was the work was hypothetical (which it was at that stage).
I put up the Jesuit web link that
stated what the Pope had done,
Just like with the Wiki site, you read this site completely wrong. The
only reference to the Pope was that he had ordered this decree to be
published.
and they had quoted extensively from the
condemnation document.
As explained above, the decree did not condemn heliocentrism.; it
simply banned it being presented as conclusive and used to reinterpret
Scripture by unauthorised people.
After quoting the decree, the authors of the site point out that:
<quote>
The formulation here is much milder than the one found in the working
document of February 24. The Decree talks about the "false Pythagorean
doctrine" and declare it "altogether contrary to the Holy Scripture".
This is not nearly as harsh as "foolish and absurd" philosophically,
and "formally heretical" because contrary to Scripture.
</quote>
You ignored that when I pointed it out to you before.
The Inquisition was not the only church body
that had condemned heliocentrism.
Except they didn't condemn it provided it was presented as
hypothetical.
If you are going to continue to insist that heliocentrism was
condemned, then you need to explain how come Cardinal Bellarmine
issued Galileo with a certificate stating that he wasn't banned from
pursuing heliocentrism; how come the Inquisition didn't ban
'Revolutions' outright as it did with Foscarini's book; how come the
Pope told Galileo that "the entire Congregation of the Holy Office
knew about his unjust persecutions*, and added the unusual remark that
so long as he, Paul V, lived, Galileo remained secure"; how come
Paul's successor, Pope Urban regularly debated heliocentrism with
Galileo and authorised him to write a book laying out the arguments
for and against it.
(* Previous complaints made by two Dominicans against Galileo and his
supporters which had been investigated and dismissed by the
Inquisition.)
Even the admission that the
Inquisition had condemned heliocentrism demonstrated that you had always
been wrong.
The Inquisition had the job of dealing with heresy. The
fact that the Pope had agreed with the Inquisition meant that there was
no way that you could possibly be correct in your denial of reality as
it existed when Galileo faced the charge of heresy in 1616.
>
When you had to face that you had lied about running from your source
coming up short you tried to quote mine the Papal condemnation
Pity you can't identify any such Papal condemnation.
| Date | Sujet | # | | Auteur |
| 1 Apr 26 |  Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 470 | | ShyDavid |
| 1 Apr 26 |  Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 2 | | RonO |
| 2 Apr 26 |    Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 1 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 467 | | MarkE |
| 2 Apr 26 |  Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 61 | | RonO |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 58 | | MarkE |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | RonO |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 5 | | ShyDavid |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 3 | | MarkE |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 2 | | RonO |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 51 | | Martin Harran |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 29 | | Ernest Major |
| 5 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 28 | | Martin Harran |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 22 | | John Harshman |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 21 | | Martin Harran |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 20 | | John Harshman |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 3 | | Ernest Major |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | John Harshman |
| 7 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Martin Harran |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Ernest Major |
| 7 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 15 | | Martin Harran |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 14 | | John Harshman |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 13 | | Martin Harran |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 12 | | John Harshman |
| 9 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 11 | | Martin Harran |
| 9 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 10 | | John Harshman |
| 9 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | William Hyde |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 8 | | ShyDavid |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 7 | | John Harshman |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 4 | | ShyDavid |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | John Harshman |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 2 | | John Harshman |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | RonO |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 2 | | Martin Harran |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | John Harshman |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 5 | | WolfFan |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 3 | | ShyDavid |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 12 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Mark Isaak |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Martin Harran |
| 16 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 21 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 16 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 20 | | sticks |
| 16 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 16 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Vincent Maycock |
| 17 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 18 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 15 | | Martin Harran |
| 18 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 14 | | sticks |
| 18 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 20 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 11 | | Mark Isaak |
| 20 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 10 | | sticks |
| 21 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 9 | | Mark Isaak |
| 21 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 8 | | sticks |
| 23 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 7 | | Mark Isaak |
| 23 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 6 | | sticks |
| 23 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Vincent Maycock |
| 25 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 4 | | Mark Isaak |
| 25 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 3 | | sticks |
| 26 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Vincent Maycock |
| 27 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Mark Isaak |
| 20 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Martin Harran |
| 18 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Mark Isaak |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 2 | | MarkE |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | RonO |
| 2 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 405 | | ShyDavid |
| 4 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 404 | | MarkE |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 377 | | MarkE |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 376 | | ShyDavid |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 2 | | sticks |
| 7 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 373 | | MarkE |
| 7 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 372 | | MarkE |
| 7 Apr 26 | gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 371 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 7 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 370 | | MarkE |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 368 | | RonO |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 366 | | MarkE |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 363 | | RonO |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 362 | | MarkE |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 361 | | RonO |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 360 | | MarkE |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 345 | | RonO |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 343 | | MarkE |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 342 | | RonO |
| 11 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 341 | | MarkE |
| 11 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 312 | | RonO |
| 11 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 311 | | MarkE |
| 12 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 310 | | RonO |
| 12 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 267 | | MarkE |
| 12 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 266 | | RonO |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 265 | | MarkE |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 264 | | RonO |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 263 | | MarkE |
| 14 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 262 | | RonO |
| 14 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 2 | | MarkE |
| 14 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | RonO |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 259 | | Martin Harran |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 256 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 255 | | Martin Harran |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 1 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 253 | | RonO |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 2 | | MarkE |
| 13 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 42 | | Martin Harran |
| 15 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 28 | | sticks |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 11 | | Kerr-Mudd, John |
| 10 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 3 | | ShyDavid |
| 9 Apr 26 | Re: The Debate Has Been Settled - Creationism Has Won | 2 | | Martin Harran |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 8 Apr 26 | Re: gods (was april fool: Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | ShyDavid |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 25 | | Mark Isaak |
| 6 Apr 26 | Re: Effective Tomorrow, We Will Be Archiving the newsgroup. The Debate Has Been Settled — Creationism Has Won | 1 | | RonO |
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