Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?

Liste des GroupesRevenir à theory 
Sujet : Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?
De : F.Zwarts (at) *nospam* HetNet.nl (Fred. Zwarts)
Groupes : comp.theory
Date : 20. Jul 2024, 09:48:30
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <v7ftku$3euo8$1@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
Op 19.jul.2024 om 16:56 schreef olcott:
On 7/19/2024 1:40 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 18.jul.2024 om 16:18 schreef olcott:
On 7/18/2024 3:41 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 17.jul.2024 om 16:56 schreef olcott:
On 7/17/2024 9:32 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 17.jul.2024 om 16:20 schreef olcott:
On 7/17/2024 8:54 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 17.jul.2024 om 15:27 schreef olcott:
>
HHH is not allowed to report on the behavior of it actual self
in its own directly executed process. HHH is allowed to report on
the effect of the behavior of the simulation of itself simulating DDD.
>
>
But only on the effect of a correct simulation.
>
_DDD()
[00002163] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
[00002164] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
[00002166] 6863210000 push 00002163 ; push DDD
[0000216b] e853f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH(DDD)
[00002170] 83c404     add esp,+04
[00002173] 5d         pop ebp
[00002174] c3         ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [00002174]
>
*THIS IS SELF EVIDENT THUS DISAGREEMENT IS INCORRECT*
DDD emulated by any pure function HHH according to the
semantic meaning of its x86 instructions never stops
running unless aborted.
>
>
It is self evident that a program that aborts will halt.
The semantics of the x86 code of a halting program is also self-evident: it halts.
So, the aborting HHH, when simulated correctly, stops.
Dreaming of a HHH that does not abort is irrelevant.
>
>
That is all the dishonest dodge of the strawman deception.
HHH is required to halt by its design spec.
>
_DDD()
[00002163] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
[00002164] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
[00002166] 6863210000 push 00002163 ; push DDD
[0000216b] e853f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH(DDD)
[00002170] 83c404     add esp,+04
[00002173] 5d         pop ebp
[00002174] c3         ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [00002174]
>
*THIS IS SELF EVIDENT THUS DISAGREEMENT IS INCORRECT*
DDD emulated by any pure function HHH according to the
semantic meaning of its x86 instructions never stops
running unless aborted.
>
>
Dreaming of a HHH that does not halt, when we are talking about a HHH that aborts and halts is irrelevant. Therefore, the 'unless aborted' is irrelevant. The semantics of the x86 instructions are self-evident: HHH halts.
>
When you are hungry you remain hungry until you eat.
   Before HHH(DDD) aborts its emulation the directly
   executed DDD() cannot possibly halt.
>
No, but HHH would have halted when not aborted, because that is how it is programmed. That is the semantics of its x86 code.
>
 int main { DDD(); } calls HHH(DDD) that must abort the
emulation of its input or
HHH, emulated DDD and executed DDD never stop running.
 
Whether HHH *must* abort, or *not abort* is irrelevant. It aborts.
When HHH is coded to abort, the reason why is no longer relevant when the behaviour is analysed.
HHH aborts and halts, therefore it is incorrect to abort the simulated HHH, which would also abort and halt.
The semantics of the x86 language is the same for the direct execution and for the simulator. The semantics of x86 does not depend on who will interpret it.
HHH, which is coded to abort, cannot refuse to abort, which makes the simulation incorrect.
DDD is a misleading and unneeded complication. It is easy to eliminate DDD:
        int main() {
          return HHH(main);
        }
This has the same problem. This proves that the problem is not in DDD, but in HHH, which halts when it aborts the simulation, but it decides that the simulation of itself does not halt.
HHH is simply unable to decide about finite recursions.
void Finite_Recursion (int N) {
   if (N > 0) Finite_Recursion (N - 1);
}
It decides after N recursions that there is an infinite recursion, which is incorrect.
Your HHH is programmed to abort the simulation after N cycles of recursive simulations. Therefore, it is incorrect to abort the simulation of HHH when the simulated HHH has performed only N-1 cycles, because that changes the behaviour of HHH.
Since the simulated HHH always runs one cycle behind the simulating HHH, it is clear that HHH can never simulate enough cycles for a correct simulation, as is required by the x86 language.
Therefore, the simulation is incorrect according to the criteria you stipulated.
The conclusion is simple:
HHH cannot possibly simulate itself correctly.
No matter how much you want it to be correct, or how many times you repeat that it is correct, it does not change the fact that such a simulation is incorrect, because it is unable to reach the end.
Your own claim that the simulated HHH does not reach its end confirms it. The trace you have shown also proves that HHH cannot reach the end of its own simulation. So, your own claims prove that it is true that HHH cannot possibly simulate itself up to the end, which makes the simulation incorrect.
Sipser would agree that this incorrect simulation cannot be used to detect a non-halting behaviour.
Olcott could not point to an error, but prefers to ignore it. So, I will repeat it, until either an error is found, or olcott admits that the simulation is incorrect.

Date Sujet#  Auteur
13 Jul 24 * Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?172olcott
13 Jul 24 +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
14 Jul 24 `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?170Mikko
14 Jul 24  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?169olcott
14 Jul 24   +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?154Richard Damon
15 Jul 24   i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?153olcott
15 Jul 24   i `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?152Richard Damon
15 Jul 24   i  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?151olcott
15 Jul 24   i   `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?150Richard Damon
15 Jul 24   i    `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?149olcott
15 Jul 24   i     `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?148Richard Damon
15 Jul 24   i      +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?111olcott
15 Jul 24   i      i+* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?4Richard Damon
15 Jul 24   i      ii`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?3olcott
15 Jul 24   i      ii +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Fred. Zwarts
16 Jul 24   i      ii `- OLCOTT ADMITS TO LYING1Richard Damon
15 Jul 24   i      i+* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?48Fred. Zwarts
15 Jul 24   i      ii`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?47olcott
16 Jul 24   i      ii +- OLCOTT ADMITS TO LYING FOR YEARS1Richard Damon
16 Jul 24   i      ii +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?40olcott
16 Jul 24   i      ii i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?39Richard Damon
16 Jul 24   i      ii i `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?38olcott
16 Jul 24   i      ii i  +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1joes
17 Jul 24   i      ii i  +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
17 Jul 24   i      ii i  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?35Mikko
17 Jul 24   i      ii i   `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?34olcott
18 Jul 24   i      ii i    +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
19 Jul 24   i      ii i    `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?32Mikko
19 Jul 24   i      ii i     `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine31olcott
19 Jul 24   i      ii i      +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
19 Jul 24   i      ii i      +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine9joes
19 Jul 24   i      ii i      i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine8olcott
19 Jul 24   i      ii i      i +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24   i      ii i      i `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine6André G. Isaak
20 Jul 24   i      ii i      i  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine5olcott
20 Jul 24   i      ii i      i   +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24   i      ii i      i   `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine3André G. Isaak
20 Jul 24   i      ii i      i    `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine2olcott
20 Jul 24   i      ii i      i     `- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24   i      ii i      `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine20Mikko
20 Jul 24   i      ii i       `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine19olcott
20 Jul 24   i      ii i        +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24   i      ii i        +* Re: Self-Modifying Turing Machine3joes
20 Jul 24   i      ii i        i`* Re: Self-Modifying Turing Machine2olcott
20 Jul 24   i      ii i        i `- Re: Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
21 Jul 24   i      ii i        `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine14Mikko
21 Jul 24   i      ii i         `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine13olcott
21 Jul 24   i      ii i          +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
21 Jul 24   i      ii i          +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine2joes
21 Jul 24   i      ii i          i`- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
22 Jul 24   i      ii i          `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine9Mikko
22 Jul 24   i      ii i           `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine8olcott
23 Jul 24   i      ii i            `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine7Mikko
23 Jul 24   i      ii i             `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine6olcott
24 Jul 24   i      ii i              +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
25 Jul 24   i      ii i              `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine4Mikko
25 Jul 24   i      ii i               `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine3olcott
26 Jul 24   i      ii i                +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
26 Jul 24   i      ii i                `- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Mikko
16 Jul 24   i      ii `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?5Fred. Zwarts
16 Jul 24   i      ii  +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
16 Jul 24   i      ii  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?3olcott
16 Jul 24   i      ii   +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Fred. Zwarts
17 Jul 24   i      ii   `- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
16 Jul 24   i      i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?58Mikko
16 Jul 24   i      i `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?57olcott
17 Jul 24   i      i  +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
17 Jul 24   i      i  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?55Mikko
17 Jul 24   i      i   `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?54olcott
17 Jul 24   i      i    +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?26Fred. Zwarts
17 Jul 24   i      i    i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?25olcott
17 Jul 24   i      i    i +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?23Fred. Zwarts
17 Jul 24   i      i    i i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?22olcott
17 Jul 24   i      i    i i +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1joes
18 Jul 24   i      i    i i +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
18 Jul 24   i      i    i i `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?19Fred. Zwarts
18 Jul 24   i      i    i i  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?18olcott
19 Jul 24   i      i    i i   +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?7Fred. Zwarts
19 Jul 24   i      i    i i   i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?6olcott
19 Jul 24   i      i    i i   i +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i   i `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?4Fred. Zwarts
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i   i  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?3olcott
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i   i   +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i   i   `- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Fred. Zwarts
19 Jul 24   i      i    i i   `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?10Mikko
19 Jul 24   i      i    i i    `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?9olcott
19 Jul 24   i      i    i i     +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i     +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?4Fred. Zwarts
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i     i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Honest Dialogue3olcott
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i     i +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Honest Dialogue1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i     i `- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Honest Dialogue1Fred. Zwarts
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i     `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?3Mikko
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i      `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Honest Dialogue2olcott
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i       `- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Honest Dialogue1Fred. Zwarts
18 Jul 24   i      i    i `- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
17 Jul 24   i      i    +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?21joes
17 Jul 24   i      i    i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?20olcott
17 Jul 24   i      i    i +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?18joes
17 Jul 24   i      i    i i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?17olcott
18 Jul 24   i      i    i i `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?16joes
18 Jul 24   i      i    i i  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?15olcott
18 Jul 24   i      i    i `- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
18 Jul 24   i      i    +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
19 Jul 24   i      i    `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?5Mikko
15 Jul 24   i      `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?36olcott
15 Jul 24   `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?14Mikko

Haut de la page

Les messages affichés proviennent d'usenet.

NewsPortal