Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?

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Sujet : Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?
De : mikko.levanto (at) *nospam* iki.fi (Mikko)
Groupes : comp.theory
Date : 20. Jul 2024, 10:20:03
Autres entêtes
Organisation : -
Message-ID : <v7fvg3$3fmfv$1@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
User-Agent : Unison/2.2
On 2024-07-19 14:54:07 +0000, olcott said:

On 7/19/2024 1:35 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 18.jul.2024 om 17:37 schreef olcott:
On 7/18/2024 10:27 AM, joes wrote:
Am Thu, 18 Jul 2024 09:14:32 -0500 schrieb olcott:
On 7/18/2024 3:25 AM, joes wrote:
Am Wed, 17 Jul 2024 15:36:24 -0500 schrieb olcott:
On 7/17/2024 3:30 PM, joes wrote:
Am Wed, 17 Jul 2024 12:20:43 -0500 schrieb olcott:
On 7/17/2024 12:16 PM, joes wrote:
Am Wed, 17 Jul 2024 08:27:08 -0500 schrieb olcott:
On 7/17/2024 2:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-07-16 18:24:49 +0000, olcott said:
On 7/16/2024 3:12 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-07-15 02:33:28 +0000, olcott said:
On 7/14/2024 9:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 7/14/24 9:27 PM, olcott wrote:
 
You have already said that a decider is not allowed to answer
anything other than its input. Now you say that the the program
at 15c3 is not a part of the input. Therefore a decider is not
allowed consider it even to the extent to decide whether it
ever returns. But without that knowledge it is not possible to
determine whether DDD halts.
It maps the finite string 558bec6863210000e853f4ffff83c4045dc3
to non-halting behavior because this finite string calls
HHH(DDD) in recursive simulation.
That string is meaningless outside of the execution environment of
HHH,
specifically the simulation of DDD it is doing. It does not encode
anything, DDD does not have access to that address. That string
doesn't call anything, the program in HHH's memory space does.
Ceterum censeo that HHH halts.
That mapping is not a part of the finite string and not a part of
the problem specification.
decider/input pairs <are> a key element of the specification.
 
The finite string does not reveal what is the effect of calling
whatever that address happens to contain.
A simulating termination analyzer proves this.
 
The behaviour of HHH is specified outside of the input. Therefore
your "decider" decides about a non-input, which you said is not
allowed.
HHH is not allowed to report on the behavior of it actual self in
its own directly executed process. HHH is allowed to report on the
effect of the behavior of the simulation of itself simulating DDD.
HHH must report on itself if its input calls it.
HHH does not directly simulate itself, it just executes.
It reports on DDD by simulating it.
Its input cannot call its actual self that exists in an entirely
different process.
Of course it doesn't make sense to return to a higher stack frame.
And of course a function can recursively call itself.
A separate process is like a different program on a different
computer.
It makes no sense to call a running program. DDD creates a new instance
of the same code with its own memory and code pointer.
It is not that it makes no sense it is that it is impossible.
 
I mean, why are you talking about that?
 All of the halting problem proofs are incorrectly anchored
in the behavior of the direct execution of the input thus
not the behavior that this input specifies to a decider that
this input invokes.
 Exactly the same input is presented to the direct execution and the simulation, namely the x86 code of the program.
The semantics of the x86 language does not change in these two cases, so a correct simulator should interpret the x86 in the same way as the direct execution.
 When you are hungry you remain hungry until you eat.
    Before HHH(DDD) aborts its emulation the directly
    executed DDD() cannot possibly halt.
As lame as your other analogies. Being hungry is a state: one can be
sometimes hungry and other times not whithout becaming another person.
Programs are constant texts. They don't have states. They only have
permanent properties.
--
Mikko

Date Sujet#  Auteur
13 Jul 24 * Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?172olcott
13 Jul 24 +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
14 Jul 24 `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?170Mikko
14 Jul 24  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?169olcott
14 Jul 24   +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?154Richard Damon
15 Jul 24   i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?153olcott
15 Jul 24   i `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?152Richard Damon
15 Jul 24   i  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?151olcott
15 Jul 24   i   `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?150Richard Damon
15 Jul 24   i    `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?149olcott
15 Jul 24   i     `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?148Richard Damon
15 Jul 24   i      +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?111olcott
15 Jul 24   i      i+* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?4Richard Damon
15 Jul 24   i      ii`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?3olcott
15 Jul 24   i      ii +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Fred. Zwarts
16 Jul 24   i      ii `- OLCOTT ADMITS TO LYING1Richard Damon
15 Jul 24   i      i+* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?48Fred. Zwarts
15 Jul 24   i      ii`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?47olcott
16 Jul 24   i      ii +- OLCOTT ADMITS TO LYING FOR YEARS1Richard Damon
16 Jul 24   i      ii +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?40olcott
16 Jul 24   i      ii i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?39Richard Damon
16 Jul 24   i      ii i `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?38olcott
16 Jul 24   i      ii i  +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1joes
17 Jul 24   i      ii i  +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
17 Jul 24   i      ii i  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?35Mikko
17 Jul 24   i      ii i   `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?34olcott
18 Jul 24   i      ii i    +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
19 Jul 24   i      ii i    `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?32Mikko
19 Jul 24   i      ii i     `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine31olcott
19 Jul 24   i      ii i      +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
19 Jul 24   i      ii i      +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine9joes
19 Jul 24   i      ii i      i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine8olcott
19 Jul 24   i      ii i      i +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24   i      ii i      i `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine6André G. Isaak
20 Jul 24   i      ii i      i  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine5olcott
20 Jul 24   i      ii i      i   +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24   i      ii i      i   `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine3André G. Isaak
20 Jul 24   i      ii i      i    `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine2olcott
20 Jul 24   i      ii i      i     `- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24   i      ii i      `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine20Mikko
20 Jul 24   i      ii i       `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine19olcott
20 Jul 24   i      ii i        +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24   i      ii i        +* Re: Self-Modifying Turing Machine3joes
20 Jul 24   i      ii i        i`* Re: Self-Modifying Turing Machine2olcott
20 Jul 24   i      ii i        i `- Re: Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
21 Jul 24   i      ii i        `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine14Mikko
21 Jul 24   i      ii i         `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine13olcott
21 Jul 24   i      ii i          +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
21 Jul 24   i      ii i          +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine2joes
21 Jul 24   i      ii i          i`- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
22 Jul 24   i      ii i          `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine9Mikko
22 Jul 24   i      ii i           `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine8olcott
23 Jul 24   i      ii i            `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine7Mikko
23 Jul 24   i      ii i             `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine6olcott
24 Jul 24   i      ii i              +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
25 Jul 24   i      ii i              `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine4Mikko
25 Jul 24   i      ii i               `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine3olcott
26 Jul 24   i      ii i                +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Richard Damon
26 Jul 24   i      ii i                `- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine1Mikko
16 Jul 24   i      ii `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?5Fred. Zwarts
16 Jul 24   i      ii  +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
16 Jul 24   i      ii  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?3olcott
16 Jul 24   i      ii   +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Fred. Zwarts
17 Jul 24   i      ii   `- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
16 Jul 24   i      i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?58Mikko
16 Jul 24   i      i `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?57olcott
17 Jul 24   i      i  +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
17 Jul 24   i      i  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?55Mikko
17 Jul 24   i      i   `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?54olcott
17 Jul 24   i      i    +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?26Fred. Zwarts
17 Jul 24   i      i    i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?25olcott
17 Jul 24   i      i    i +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?23Fred. Zwarts
17 Jul 24   i      i    i i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?22olcott
17 Jul 24   i      i    i i +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1joes
18 Jul 24   i      i    i i +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
18 Jul 24   i      i    i i `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?19Fred. Zwarts
18 Jul 24   i      i    i i  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?18olcott
19 Jul 24   i      i    i i   +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?7Fred. Zwarts
19 Jul 24   i      i    i i   i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?6olcott
19 Jul 24   i      i    i i   i +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i   i `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?4Fred. Zwarts
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i   i  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?3olcott
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i   i   +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i   i   `- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Fred. Zwarts
19 Jul 24   i      i    i i   `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?10Mikko
19 Jul 24   i      i    i i    `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?9olcott
19 Jul 24   i      i    i i     +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i     +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?4Fred. Zwarts
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i     i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Honest Dialogue3olcott
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i     i +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Honest Dialogue1Richard Damon
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i     i `- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Honest Dialogue1Fred. Zwarts
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i     `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?3Mikko
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i      `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Honest Dialogue2olcott
20 Jul 24   i      i    i i       `- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true? --- Honest Dialogue1Fred. Zwarts
18 Jul 24   i      i    i `- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
17 Jul 24   i      i    +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?21joes
17 Jul 24   i      i    i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?20olcott
17 Jul 24   i      i    i +* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?18joes
17 Jul 24   i      i    i i`* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?17olcott
18 Jul 24   i      i    i i `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?16joes
18 Jul 24   i      i    i i  `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?15olcott
18 Jul 24   i      i    i `- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
18 Jul 24   i      i    +- Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?1Richard Damon
19 Jul 24   i      i    `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?5Mikko
15 Jul 24   i      `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?36olcott
15 Jul 24   `* Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?14Mikko

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