Re: embedded_H applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩

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Sujet : Re: embedded_H applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
De : mikko.levanto (at) *nospam* iki.fi (Mikko)
Groupes : comp.theory
Date : 30. Jul 2024, 07:37:58
Autres entêtes
Organisation : -
Message-ID : <v8a1o6$tvll$1@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28
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On 2024-07-29 16:16:13 +0000, olcott said:

On 7/28/2024 3:02 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-07-27 14:08:10 +0000, olcott said:
 
On 7/27/2024 2:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-07-26 14:08:11 +0000, olcott said:
 
On 7/26/2024 3:45 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-07-24 13:33:55 +0000, olcott said:
 
On 7/24/2024 3:57 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-07-23 13:31:35 +0000, olcott said:
 
On 7/23/2024 1:32 AM, 0 wrote:
On 2024-07-22 13:46:21 +0000, olcott said:
 
On 7/22/2024 2:57 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-07-21 13:34:40 +0000, olcott said:
 
On 7/21/2024 4:34 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-07-20 13:11:03 +0000, olcott said:
 
On 7/20/2024 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-07-19 14:08:24 +0000, olcott said:
 
When we use your incorrect reasoning we would conclude
that Infinite_Loop() is not an infinite loop because it
only repeats until aborted and is aborted.
 You and your HHH can reason or at least conclude correctly about
Infinite_Loop but not about DDD. Possibly because it prefers to
say "no", which is correct about Infinte_loop but not about DDD.
 
 *Because this is true I don't understand how you are not simply lying*
int main
{
   DDD();
}
 Calls HHH(DDD) that must abort the emulation of its input
or {HHH, emulated DDD and executed DDD} never stop running.
 You are the lying one.
 If HHH(DDD) abrots its simulation and returns true it is correct as a
halt decider for DDD really halts.
 
 (b) We know that a decider is not allowed to report on the behavior
computation that itself is contained within.
 No, we don't. There is no such prohibition.
 
 Turing machines never take actual Turing machines as inputs.
They only take finite strings as inputs and an actual executing
Turing machine is not itself a finite string.
 The definition of a Turing machine does not say that a Turing machine
is not a finite string. It is an abstract mathematical object without
a specification of its exact nature. It could be a set or a finite
string. Its exact nature is not relevant to the theory of computation,
which only cares about certain properties of Turing machines.
 
Therefore It is not allowed to report on its own behavior.
 Anyway, that does not follow. The theory of Turing machines does not
prohibit anything.
 
Another different TM can take the TM description of this
machine and thus accurately report on its actual behavior.
 If a Turing machine can take a description of a TM as its input
or as a part of its input it can also take its own description.
Every Turing machine can be given its own description as input
but a Turing machine may interprete it as something else.
 
In this case we have two x86utm machines that are identical
except that DDD calls HHH and DDD does not call HHH1.
 That DDD calls HHH and DDD does not call HHH1 is not a difference
between two unnamed turing machines.
 
 The same thing happens at the Peter Linz Turing Machine level
I will provide that more difficult example if and only if you
prove that you understand this one.
 However, Peter Linz does not call taht same thing a difference.
 We can call everything "late for dinner" with a unique integer
index and the properties that I assert exist still exist.
 That you can say all sorts stupid things does not mean that it be a
good idea to do so.
 Some of the properties you assert exsit actually do exist, some don't.
 
When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
 
 The above is merely simplified syntax for the top of page 3
https://www.liarparadox.org/Linz_Proof.pdf
The above is the whole original Linz proof.
 And even more simplified semantics.
 
(a) Ĥ copies its input ⟨Ĥ⟩
(b) Ĥ invokes embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
(c) embedded_H simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
(d) simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ copies its input ⟨Ĥ⟩
(e) simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ invokes simulated embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
(f) simulated embedded_H simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
(g) goto (d) with one more level of simulation
 You are supposed to evaluate the above as a contiguous
sequence of moves such that non-halting behavior is
identified.
 The above is an obvious tight loop of (d), (e), (f), and (g).
Its relevance (it any) to the topic of the discussion is not
obvious.
 
 When we compute the mapping from the input to embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
to the behavior specified by this input we know that embedded_H
is correct to transition to Ĥ.qn.
The meaning of "correct" in this context is that if the transition of
embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to Ĥ.qn is correct if H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ transitions to H.qn but
incorrect otherwise.
--
Mikko

Date Sujet#  Auteur
12 Jul 24 * DDD correctly emulated by HHH is correctly rejected as non-halting V2214olcott
12 Jul 24 +- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is correctly rejected as non-halting V21Fred. Zwarts
13 Jul 24 +* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is INcorrectly rejected as non-halting V2186Richard Damon
13 Jul 24 i`* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V2185olcott
13 Jul 24 i +* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V27Richard Damon
13 Jul 24 i i`* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V26olcott
13 Jul 24 i i +- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
13 Jul 24 i i `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V24joes
13 Jul 24 i i  `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V23olcott
13 Jul 24 i i   +- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V21joes
13 Jul 24 i i   `- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
13 Jul 24 i `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V2177Fred. Zwarts
13 Jul 24 i  `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V2176olcott
13 Jul 24 i   +* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V2171Fred. Zwarts
13 Jul 24 i   i`* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V2170olcott
13 Jul 24 i   i +* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V215Richard Damon
13 Jul 24 i   i i`* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V214olcott
13 Jul 24 i   i i `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V213Richard Damon
13 Jul 24 i   i i  `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V212olcott
13 Jul 24 i   i i   `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V211Richard Damon
13 Jul 24 i   i i    `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V210olcott
13 Jul 24 i   i i     `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V29Richard Damon
13 Jul 24 i   i i      `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V28olcott
13 Jul 24 i   i i       `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V27Richard Damon
13 Jul 24 i   i i        `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V26olcott
13 Jul 24 i   i i         `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V25Richard Damon
13 Jul 24 i   i i          `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V24olcott
13 Jul 24 i   i i           `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is *IN*Correctly rejected as non-halting V23Richard Damon
13 Jul 24 i   i i            `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is *IN*Correctly rejected as non-halting V22olcott
13 Jul 24 i   i i             `- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is *IN*Correctly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
13 Jul 24 i   i +* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V2147joes
13 Jul 24 i   i i`* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V2146olcott
13 Jul 24 i   i i +- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
13 Jul 24 i   i i `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V2144joes
13 Jul 24 i   i i  `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V2143olcott
13 Jul 24 i   i i   +- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
14 Jul 24 i   i i   `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V2141joes
14 Jul 24 i   i i    `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V2140olcott
14 Jul 24 i   i i     +* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V2138joes
14 Jul 24 i   i i     i`* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V2137olcott
14 Jul 24 i   i i     i +- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
14 Jul 24 i   i i     i `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V2135joes
14 Jul 24 i   i i     i  `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V2134olcott
14 Jul 24 i   i i     i   +- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   +* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V2125joes
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i+* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V228olcott
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii+- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is IN*Correctly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii`* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V226joes
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V225olcott
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii  +- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V21Fred. Zwarts
16 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii  +- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
16 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii  `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V222Mikko
16 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii   `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V221olcott
17 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii    +- Re: DDD incorrectly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
17 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii    `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V219Mikko
17 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii     `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V218olcott
17 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii      +* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V210Fred. Zwarts
17 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii      i`* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V29olcott
17 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii      i +- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V21Fred. Zwarts
17 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii      i +* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V25joes
17 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii      i i`* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V24olcott
17 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii      i i +* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V22joes
17 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii      i i i`- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V21olcott
18 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii      i i `- Re: DDD incorrectly emulated by HHH is inCorrectly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
18 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii      i +- Re: DDD incorrectly emulated by HHH is inCorrectly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
18 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii      i `- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V21Mikko
18 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii      +- Re: DDD incorrectly emulated by HHH is inCorrectly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
18 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii      `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V26Mikko
18 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii       `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V25olcott
18 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii        +- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V21Fred. Zwarts
19 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii        `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V23Mikko
19 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii         `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V22olcott
19 Jul 24 i   i i     i   ii          `- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i`* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V296Mike Terry
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V295olcott
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  +* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V25Fred. Zwarts
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  i`* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V24olcott
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  i +- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V21joes
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  i +- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V21Fred. Zwarts
16 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  i `- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  +* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V286joes
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  i+* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V282olcott
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  ii+* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V280joes
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii`* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V279olcott
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii +- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V21Fred. Zwarts
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii +* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V276joes
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i`* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V275olcott
16 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i +- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
16 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V273joes
16 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i  `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V272olcott
16 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i   +* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V269joes
17 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i   i`* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V268olcott
19 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i   i `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V267Mikko
19 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i   i  `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V266olcott
20 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i   i   `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V265Mikko
20 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i   i    `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V264olcott
20 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i   i     +- Re: DDD INcorrectly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
21 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i   i     `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V262Mikko
21 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i   i      `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V261olcott
21 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i   i       +- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V21joes
21 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i   i       +- Re: DDD INcorrectly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
22 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i   i       `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V258Mikko
16 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i   +- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V21Fred. Zwarts
17 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii i   `- Re: DDD incorrectly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
16 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  iii `- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
16 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  ii`- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  i`* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V23Mike Terry
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   i  `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is *IN*Correctly rejected as non-halting V23Richard Damon
15 Jul 24 i   i i     i   `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V27Mikko
14 Jul 24 i   i i     `- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V21Richard Damon
14 Jul 24 i   i `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V27Mikko
13 Jul 24 i   +* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is INCorrectly rejected as non-halting V23Richard Damon
13 Jul 24 i   `- Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V21joes
13 Jul 24 +* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is correctly rejected as non-halting V22Mikko
14 Jul 24 `* Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is correctly rejected as non-halting V224Mikko

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