Re: Indirect Reference Changes the Behavior of DDD() relative to DDD emulated by HHH

Liste des GroupesRevenir à theory 
Sujet : Re: Indirect Reference Changes the Behavior of DDD() relative to DDD emulated by HHH
De : polcott333 (at) *nospam* gmail.com (olcott)
Groupes : comp.theory
Date : 31. Aug 2024, 17:15:54
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <vavfjq$12m8t$3@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 8/31/2024 10:47 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 31.aug.2024 om 17:22 schreef olcott:
On 8/31/2024 10:15 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 31.aug.2024 om 14:50 schreef olcott:
On 8/30/2024 8:31 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-08-29 14:04:05 +0000, olcott said:
>
On 8/29/2024 3:00 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-08-28 11:46:58 +0000, olcott said:
>
On 8/28/2024 2:33 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-08-27 13:04:26 +0000, olcott said:
>
On 8/27/2024 12:45 AM, joes wrote:
Am Mon, 26 Aug 2024 18:03:41 -0500 schrieb olcott:
On 8/26/2024 7:42 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> writes:
On 23/08/2024 22:07, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>
We don't really know what context Sipser was given.  I got in touch
at the time so I do know he had enough context to know that PO's
ideas were "wacky" and that had agreed to what he considered a "minor
remark". Since PO considers his words finely crafted and key to his
so-called work I think it's clear that Sipser did not take the "minor
remark" he agreed to to mean what PO takes it to mean!  My own take
if that he (Sipser) read it as a general remark about how to
determine some cases, i.e. that D names an input that H can partially
simulate to determine it's halting or otherwise.  We all know or
could construct some such cases.
>
Exactly my reading.  It makes Sipser's agreement natural, because it
is both correct [with sensible interpretation of terms], and moreover
describes an obvious strategy that a partial decider might use that
can decide halting for some specific cases.  No need for Sipser to be
deceptive or misleading here, when the truth suffices.  (In particular
no need to employ "tricksy" vacuous truth get out clauses just to get
PO off his back as some have suggested.)
>
Yes, and it fits with his thinking it a "trivial remark".
>
That aside, it's such an odd way to present an argument: "I managed to
trick X into saying 'yes' to something vague".  In any reasonable
collegiate exchange you'd go back and check: "So even when D is
constructed from H, H can return based on what /would/ happen if H did
not stop simulating so that H(D,D) == false is correct even though D(D)
halts?".  Just imagine what Sipser would say to that!
Is this an accurate phrasing, pete?
>
Deciders never compute the mapping of the computation
that they themselves are contained within.
>
Why not? A decider always either accepts or rejects its input.
>
The computation that they themselves are contained within cannot
possibly be an input.
>
What would prevent that if the input language permits computations?
>
>
When a TM takes its own machine description as input
this is not always that same behavior as the direct
execution of the machine. It is not the same because
it is one level of indirect reference away.
>
Now you contradict what you said above. You said that deciders never
conpute the mapping of the computation they themselves are contained
within.
>
Although deciders cannot possibly see their own behavior
other people can see this behavior.
>
Now you are saying that they do in a way that might not be
as expected.
>
>
If is a verified fact that DDD has different behavior
before it is aborted in the same way that people are
hungry before they eat.
>
No, the behaviour specified by the finite string does not change when a simulator decides to do the simulation only halfway. It is just an incorrect simulation.
>
>
than the behavior of DDD after it has been aborted,
people are not hungry after they eat.
>
If two people are hungry and one of them eats, the other one is still hungry and needs to eat. It is stupid to say that they are no longer hungry because they have eaten.
Similarly the simulating HHH is not longer hungry, but the simulated HHH still is hungry and has not yet eaten.
>
>
The direct execution of DDD includes the behavior
of the emulated DDD after it has been aborted.
>
And the simulator should also simulate until it sees the behaviour of after the simulated HHH has aborted its simulator.
>
THIS IS ONLY YOUR OWN FREAKING STUPIDITY.
No evidence for this ad hominem attack. So, my claim still stands.
People that are not as stupid can see that HHH cannot
wait for itself to abort its own simulation.
--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Date Sujet#  Auteur
20 Aug 24 * Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5326olcott
20 Aug 24 +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5323Richard Damon
20 Aug 24 i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5322olcott
20 Aug 24 i `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5321Richard Damon
20 Aug 24 i  +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V515olcott
20 Aug 24 i  i+* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V55joes
20 Aug 24 i  ii`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V54olcott
21 Aug 24 i  ii +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V51Richard Damon
21 Aug 24 i  ii +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V51Mikko
27 Aug 24 i  ii `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V51Mikko
20 Aug 24 i  i+* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V58Fred. Zwarts
20 Aug 24 i  ii`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V57olcott
20 Aug 24 i  ii +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V53joes
20 Aug 24 i  ii i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V52olcott
21 Aug 24 i  ii i `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V51Richard Damon
21 Aug 24 i  ii +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V51Richard Damon
21 Aug 24 i  ii `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V52Fred. Zwarts
27 Aug 24 i  ii  `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V51Mikko
27 Aug 24 i  i`- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V51Mikko
20 Aug 24 i  `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5305olcott
21 Aug 24 i   `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5304Richard Damon
21 Aug 24 i    `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser303olcott
21 Aug 24 i     +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser300Richard Damon
21 Aug 24 i     i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser299olcott
21 Aug 24 i     i +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser296Richard Damon
21 Aug 24 i     i i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser295olcott
21 Aug 24 i     i i +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser293Richard Damon
21 Aug 24 i     i i i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser292olcott
21 Aug 24 i     i i i +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser284Mikko
21 Aug 24 i     i i i i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser283olcott
21 Aug 24 i     i i i i +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser3joes
21 Aug 24 i     i i i i i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser2olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Richard Damon
21 Aug 24 i     i i i i +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser11Fred. Zwarts
21 Aug 24 i     i i i i i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser10olcott
21 Aug 24 i     i i i i i +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser3joes
21 Aug 24 i     i i i i i i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser2olcott
27 Aug 24 i     i i i i i i `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Richard Damon
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser5Fred. Zwarts
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i  `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser4olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   +- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1joes
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Fred. Zwarts
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser267Richard Damon
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i+* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser3olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i ii+- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Richard Damon
27 Aug 24 i     i i i i ii`- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser263olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser262Richard Damon
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i  `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser261olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser84Richard Damon
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser83olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser82Richard Damon
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i  `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser81olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser29Fred. Zwarts
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser28olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Python
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser24joes
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser23olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser5joes
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser4olcott
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i +- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i +- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1joes
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Fred. Zwarts
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser15Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser14olcott
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser11Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser10olcott
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser8Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser7olcott
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i i `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser6Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i i  `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser5olcott
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i i   +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser3Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i i   i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser2olcott
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i i   i `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i i   `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
27 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i +- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Fred. Zwarts
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i +- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Fred. Zwarts
27 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Fred. Zwarts
27 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Fred. Zwarts
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser31joes
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser30olcott
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i +- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser28joes
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i  `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser27olcott
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i   `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser26Fred. Zwarts
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i    `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- Execution trace of simulating termination analyzer HHH on DDD input25olcott
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input10joes
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input9olcott
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input8Fred. Zwarts
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i  +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input3olcott
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i  i+- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input1Richard Damon
25 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i  i`- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input1Fred. Zwarts
25 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i  `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input4Mikko
25 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i   `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input3olcott
25 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i    +- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input1Richard Damon
25 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i    `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input1Fred. Zwarts
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     +- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- Execution trace of simulating termination analyzer HHH on DDD input1Richard Damon
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- Execution trace of simulating termination analyzer HHH on DDD input13Fred. Zwarts
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Richard Damon
27 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser19Mikko
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser176joes
27 Aug 24 i     i i i i `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
21 Aug 24 i     i i i +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser6Richard Damon
27 Aug 24 i     i i i `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
27 Aug 24 i     i i `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
21 Aug 24 i     i +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
27 Aug 24 i     i `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
21 Aug 24 i     +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
27 Aug 24 i     `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
20 Aug 24 `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V52Mikko

Haut de la page

Les messages affichés proviennent d'usenet.

NewsPortal