Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ###

On 5/20/24 1:56 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/20/2024 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-05-19 14:03:01 +0000, olcott said:
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On 5/19/2024 8:48 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-05-19 12:34:08 +0000, olcott said:
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On 5/19/2024 2:53 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-05-18 15:34:36 +0000, James Kuyper said:
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On 5/18/24 09:02, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-05-17 17:14:01 +0000, olcott said:

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I recommend ignoring olcott - nothing good ever comes from paying
attention to him.
>

On 5/17/2024 5:53 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-05-16 14:50:19 +0000, olcott said:
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On 5/16/2024 5:48 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-05-15 15:24:57 +0000, olcott said:

...

typedef int (*ptr)();  // ptr is pointer to int function
00 int H(ptr x, ptr x);
01 int D(ptr x)
02 {
03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
04   if (Halt_Status)
05     HERE: goto HERE;
06   return Halt_Status;
07 }
08
09 int main()
10 {
11   H(D,D);
12   return 0;
13 }

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Can you find any compiler that is liberal enough to accept that?
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It has been fully operational code under Windows and
Linux for two years.

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If your compiler does not reject that program it is not a conforming
C compiler. The semantics according to C standard is that a diagnostic
message must be given. The standard does not specify what happens if
you execute that program anyway.
>

>
It is not nit picky syntax that is the issue here.
The SEMANTICS OF THE C PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE SPECIFIES
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No D simulated correctly by any H of every H/D pair specified
by the above template ever reaches its own line 06 and halts.

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The standard allows that an program is executed but does not
specify what happens when an invalid program is executed.

>
You've cross-posted this to comp.lang.c after a long-running discussion
solely on comp.theory. Presumably you're doing that because you want
some discussion about what the standard says about this code. For the
sake of those of us who have not been following that discussion on
comp.theory, could you please identify what it is that you think renders
this code invalid? Offhand, I don't see anything wrong with it, but I'm
far more reliable when I say "I see an error" than when I say "I don't
see an error".
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>

Fully operational software that runs under Widows and Linux
proves that the above is true EMPIRICALLY.

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No, it does not. As the program is not strictly comforming
and uses a non-standard extension some implementation may
execute it differently or refuse to execute.

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Which non-standard extension does it use?

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The main question is whether both arguments of H on the line 00 can have
the same name.

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That was a typo that I did not believe when told because so may people
continue to lie about the behavior of D correctly simulated by H.

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How does the D that is correctly simulated by H different from any
D that is incorrectly simulated by H nor not simulated by H?

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Oops, I made a typo on the last line. Pro "nor" lege "or".
Fortunately most of the typos are harmless but this one
might be a problem.
>

typedef int (*ptr)();  // ptr is pointer to int function
00 int H(ptr p, ptr i);
01 int D(ptr p)
02 {
03   int Halt_Status = H(p, p);
04   if (Halt_Status)
05     HERE: goto HERE;
06   return Halt_Status;
07 }
08
09 int main()
10 {
11   H(D,D);
12   return 0;
13 }
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In the above case a simulator is an x86 emulator that correctly
emulates at least one of the x86 instructions of D in the order
specified by the x86 instructions of D.
>
This may include correctly emulating the x86 instructions of H
in the order specified by the x86 instructions of H thus calling
H(D,D) in recursive simulation.

>
As far as I can see, that does not say anything that was not already
said (but there is a minor presentational imporvement) and in particular
does not answer my question.
>

 For two or three years everyone has been claiming that the
above measures of correct simulation are incorrect. Their
"ultimate" measure of a "correct" simulation is that D does
whatever they expect D to do.
 

No, Your measure is not correct for determining HALTING per Computaiton Theory.
Since you are clearly trying to determine halting, your "partial simulations" (as the more accurate name would be) just are not correct enough to do that job.
All you can prove is that D hasn't halted YET, and that every D in that set takes longer to halt (if it does) then the H that simulates it does its simulation.
Since you have agreed that for EVERY H that returns 0 for H(D,D) that D built on it WLL HALT, that answer from H must be wrong, even if you try to invent some logic to make it the right answer. Your logic always tries to make the wrong answer right, by trying to let H answer some other question, but that is just being dishonest, as the question being asked IS the question being asked, which is about the actual behavior of the actual machine the input describes/specifies/represents even if you try to claim it can't be, it is.