Re: A simulating halt decider applied to the The Peter Linz Turing Machine description ⟨Ĥ⟩

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Sujet : Re: A simulating halt decider applied to the The Peter Linz Turing Machine description ⟨Ĥ⟩
De : polcott333 (at) *nospam* gmail.com (olcott)
Groupes : comp.theory
Date : 29. May 2024, 15:13:13
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <v379la$159q4$2@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 5/29/2024 3:37 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-05-28 11:34:24 +0000, Richard Damon said:
 
On 5/27/24 10:59 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/27/2024 9:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/27/24 10:41 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/27/2024 9:23 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/27/24 10:01 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/27/2024 8:24 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/27/24 9:04 PM, olcott wrote:
>
I totally do. Can you please write down the
"completely specified state transition/tape operation table."
of this specific (thus uniquely identifiable) machine I would
really like to see it.
>
>
But it was proven that no such machine exists!
>
Remember, the proof starts with the hypothetical that such a machine exists. Such a machine WOULD HAVE a completely specified state transition/tape operation table.
>
>
That is not what you said.
 >>>>> There doesn't need to be a unique finite string, but it is a 100%
 >>>>> completely specified state transition/tape operation table.
>
"a 100% completely specified state transition/tape operation table"
of a non-existent machine.
>
Right, by presuming that you have a Turing Machine, you have a completly specified state transition/tape operation table.
>
You may not KNOW what that table is if you don't know what the exact machine is, but you know it exists.
>
 >>> But it was proven that no such machine exists!
 > ... but you know it exists.
>
 >>> But it was proven that no such machine exists!
 > ... but you know it exists.
>
 >>> But it was proven that no such machine exists!
 > ... but you know it exists.
>
>
>
>
Really, then show that one exists!
>
>
*I am quoting your words. You did contradict yourself*
*I am quoting your words. You did contradict yourself*
*I am quoting your words. You did contradict yourself*
*I am quoting your words. You did contradict yourself*
*I am quoting your words. You did contradict yourself*
*I am quoting your words. You did contradict yourself*
*I am quoting your words. You did contradict yourself*
*I am quoting your words. You did contradict yourself*
*I am quoting your words. You did contradict yourself*
*I am quoting your words. You did contradict yourself*
>
>
>
Really, where did I say that H exists?
>
I said that if a Turing Machine exists, then its transition table does too.
>
>
OK my mistake this time. I did not take into account the full context.
I will go back an read the Linz proof and see if he said anything
about a specific machine.
>
Read the DEFINITION of the problem. He talks about "a" machine. Using a singular article means you are working with just one.
>
>
Taking stuff out of context is a common problem with you, when you don't understand something, you just make up what it must mean, and stick to that. That isn't the way to learn.
>
>
>
None of the proofs ever try to show that there exists one machine that
gets the wrong answer. They are always at least trying to prove that no
machine of the infinite set of machine gets the right answer.
>
>
What I see, is they always start with a prototypical single machine, and show that it gets the answer wrong, and then they use categorical logic to say that we can do this same thing for all of them.
 It is possible to formulate the claim and proof so that H is an universally
quantified variable. But the usual way is apparently equally good for the
target audience.
 
*Formalizing the Linz Proof structure*
∃H  ∈ Turing_Machines
∀x  ∈ Turing_Machines_Descriptions
∀y  ∈ Finite_Strings
such that H(x,y) = Halts(x,y)
--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Date Sujet#  Auteur
23 May 24 * Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?186olcott
24 May 24 +* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?23Richard Damon
24 May 24 i+* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?10olcott
24 May 24 ii`* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?9Richard Damon
24 May 24 ii `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?8olcott
24 May 24 ii  `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?7Richard Damon
24 May 24 ii   `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?6olcott
24 May 24 ii    `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?5Richard Damon
24 May 24 ii     `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?4olcott
24 May 24 ii      `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?3Richard Damon
24 May 24 ii       `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?2olcott
25 May 24 ii        `- Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?1Richard Damon
24 May 24 i`* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?12Fred. Zwarts
24 May 24 i +* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?5Richard Damon
24 May 24 i i`* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?4olcott
24 May 24 i i `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?3Richard Damon
24 May 24 i i  `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?2olcott
25 May 24 i i   `- Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?1Richard Damon
24 May 24 i `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?6olcott
24 May 24 i  `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?5Richard Damon
24 May 24 i   `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?4olcott
24 May 24 i    `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?3Richard Damon
24 May 24 i     `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?2olcott
25 May 24 i      `- Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?1Richard Damon
24 May 24 +* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?154Fred. Zwarts
24 May 24 i`* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?153olcott
24 May 24 i `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?152Richard Damon
24 May 24 i  `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?151olcott
24 May 24 i   `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?150Richard Damon
24 May 24 i    `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?149olcott
25 May 24 i     +- Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?1Richard Damon
25 May 24 i     `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?147olcott
25 May 24 i      `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?146Richard Damon
25 May 24 i       `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?145olcott
25 May 24 i        `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?144Richard Damon
25 May 24 i         `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?143olcott
25 May 24 i          +* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?140Richard Damon
25 May 24 i          i`* D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06139olcott
25 May 24 i          i `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06138Richard Damon
25 May 24 i          i  `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06137olcott
25 May 24 i          i   +* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06134Richard Damon
25 May 24 i          i   i`* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06133olcott
25 May 24 i          i   i `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06132Richard Damon
25 May 24 i          i   i  `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06131olcott
25 May 24 i          i   i   `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06130Richard Damon
25 May 24 i          i   i    `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06129olcott
25 May 24 i          i   i     `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06128Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i      +* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 066olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i      i`* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 065Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i      i `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 064olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i      i  `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 063Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i      i   `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 062olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i      i    `- Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 061Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i      `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06121olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i       `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06120Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i        `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06119olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i         `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06118Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i          `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06117olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i           `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06116Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i            `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06115olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i             `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06114Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i              `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06113olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i               `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06112Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i                +* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 062olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i                i`- Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 061Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i                `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06109olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i                 `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06108Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i                  +* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 066olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i                  i`* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 065Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i                  i +* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 062olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i                  i i`- Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 061Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i                  i `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 062olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i                  i  `- Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 061Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i                  `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06 --- Dishonest?101olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i                   `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06 --- Dishonest?100Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i                    `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06 --- Dishonest?99olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i                     `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06 --- Dishonest?98Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i                      `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06 --- Dishonest?97olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i                       `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06 --- Dishonest?96Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i                        `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06 ---95olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i                         `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06 ---94Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i                          `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06 ---93olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i                           `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06 ---92Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i                            +* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06 --- Linz proof4olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i                            i`* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06 --- Linz proof3Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i                            i `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06 --- Linz proof2olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i                            i  `- Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06 --- Linz proof1Richard Damon
26 May 24 i          i   i                            `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06 --- Linz87olcott
26 May 24 i          i   i                             `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 06 --- Linz86Richard Damon
27 May 24 i          i   i                              `* A simulating halt decider applied to the The Peter Linz Turing Machine description ⟨Ĥ⟩85olcott
27 May 24 i          i   i                               `* Re: A simulating halt decider applied to the The Peter Linz Turing Machine description ⟨Ĥ⟩84Richard Damon
27 May 24 i          i   i                                `* Re: A simulating halt decider applied to the The Peter Linz Turing Machine description ⟨Ĥ⟩83olcott
27 May 24 i          i   i                                 `* Re: A simulating halt decider applied to the The Peter Linz Turing Machine description ⟨Ĥ⟩82Richard Damon
27 May 24 i          i   i                                  +* Re: A simulating halt decider applied to the The Peter Linz Turing Machine description ⟨Ĥ⟩4olcott
27 May 24 i          i   i                                  i`* Re: A simulating halt decider applied to the The Peter Linz Turing Machine description ⟨Ĥ⟩3Richard Damon
27 May 24 i          i   i                                  i `* Re: A simulating halt decider applied to the The Peter Linz Turing Machine description ⟨Ĥ⟩2olcott
27 May 24 i          i   i                                  i  `- Re: A simulating halt decider applied to the The Peter Linz Turing Machine description ⟨Ĥ⟩1Richard Damon
27 May 24 i          i   i                                  `* Re: A simulating halt decider applied to the The Peter Linz Turing Machine description ⟨Ĥ⟩77olcott
27 May 24 i          i   i                                   +* Re: A simulating halt decider applied to the The Peter Linz Turing Machine description ⟨Ĥ⟩3Richard Damon
27 May 24 i          i   i                                   i`* Re: A simulating halt decider applied to the The Peter Linz Turing Machine description ⟨Ĥ⟩2olcott
27 May 24 i          i   i                                   i `- Re: A simulating halt decider applied to the The Peter Linz Turing Machine description ⟨Ĥ⟩1Richard Damon
27 May 24 i          i   i                                   `* Re: A simulating halt decider applied to the The Peter Linz Turing Machine description ⟨Ĥ⟩73olcott
25 May 24 i          i   `* Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach its, own line 062Alan Mackenzie
26 May 24 i          `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?2Fred. Zwarts
24 May 24 `* Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation?8Mikko

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