Re: Hypothetical possibilities

On 7/20/24 8:21 PM, olcott wrote:

On 7/20/2024 7:05 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 7/20/24 7:06 PM, olcott wrote:

On 7/20/2024 6:00 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 7/20/24 6:47 PM, olcott wrote:

On 7/20/2024 5:11 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 7/20/24 5:21 PM, olcott wrote:

On 7/20/2024 4:06 PM, joes wrote:

Am Sat, 20 Jul 2024 15:05:53 -0500 schrieb olcott:

On 7/20/2024 2:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 7/20/24 3:09 PM, olcott wrote:

On 7/20/2024 2:00 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:

Op 20.jul.2024 om 17:28 schreef olcott:

>

(a) Termination Analyzers / Partial Halt Deciders must halt this is
a design requirement.
(b) Every simulating termination analyzer HHH either aborts the
simulation of its input or not.
(c) Within the hypothetical case where HHH does not abort the
simulation of its input {HHH, emulated DDD and executed DDD}
never stop running.
This violates the design requirement of (a) therefore HHH must abort
the simulation of its input.

You missed a couple details:
A terminating input shouldn't be aborted, or at least not classified
as not terminating. Terminating inputs needn't be aborted; they and the
simulator halt on their own.
>

And when it aborts, the simulation is incorrect. When HHH aborts and
halts, it is not needed to abort its simulation, because it will halt
of its own.

So you are trying to get away with saying that no HHH ever needs to
abort the simulation of its input and HHH will stop running?

Pretty much.

It is the fact that HHH DOES abort its simulation that makes it not
need to.

No stupid it is not a fact that every HHH that can possibly exist aborts
its simulation.

I thought they all halt after a finite number of steps?
>

>
void DDD()
{
    HHH(DDD);
    return;
}
>
DDD correctly simulated by pure function HHH cannot
possibly reach its own return instruction.
>

>
Wrong.
>

>
You know that you are lying about this as you admit below:

>
Nope, YOU just don't what the words mean, and reckless disregard the teaching you have been getting, which makes your errors not just honest mistakes but reckless pathological lies.
>

>

It may be that the simulation by HHH never reaches that point,

>

but if HHH aborts its simuliaton and returns (as required for it to be a decider) then the behavior of DDD

>
Simulated by HHH is to Die, stop running, no longer function.

>
Nope, HHH is NOT the "Machine" that determines what the code does, so can not "Kill" it.
>

>
So you are trying to get away with the lie
that an aborted simulation keeps on running.
>

>
No, but the BEHAVIOR of the program does, and that is what matters.

 So you agree that DDD correctly simulated by any pure function
HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?
 

No, I will let you claim (without proof, so we can argue tha later) that the simulation by HHH of DDD does not reach the return, but the behavior of the DDD simuliated by HHH continues, to the return if HHH aborts its simulation and returns, as the behavior of ALL copies of DDD do not "stop" just because some simulator gave up looking at it.
I don't see how you get any agreement by me except by your totally misunderstanding English.
English lesson:
"DDD simulated by HHH" has as its subject, the PROGRAM DDD that we are specifing is the version of DDD that is being simulated by the HHH, but being a PROGRAM, its behavior continues until it reaches the end. The simulation mentioned isn't a factor in that at all.
"The Simulation by HHH of DDD" has as its subject, the Simulation itself, so the characteristics of that simulation are what is of concern, and the "of DDD" and "by HHH" are refining which simulation we are talking about.
The Halting Question is STRICTLY about the first case, the actual behavior of DDD, which no HHH ever gets right by your description.