Re: key error in all the proofs --- Mike's correction of Joes

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Sujet : Re: key error in all the proofs --- Mike's correction of Joes
De : F.Zwarts (at) *nospam* HetNet.nl (Fred. Zwarts)
Groupes : comp.theory
Date : 15. Aug 2024, 09:20:57
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Op 14.aug.2024 om 23:08 schreef olcott:
On 8/14/2024 3:56 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
On 14/08/2024 18:45, olcott wrote:
On 8/14/2024 11:31 AM, joes wrote:
Am Wed, 14 Aug 2024 08:42:33 -0500 schrieb olcott:
On 8/14/2024 2:30 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-08-13 13:30:08 +0000, olcott said:
On 8/13/2024 6:23 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 8/12/24 11:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>
*DDD correctly emulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its* *own
"return" instruction final halt state, thus never halts*
>
Which is only correct if HHH actuallly does a complete and correct
emulation, or the behavior DDD (but not the emulation of DDD by HHH)
will reach that return.
>
A complete emulation of a non-terminating input has always been a
contradiction in terms.
HHH correctly predicts that a correct and unlimited emulation of DDD
by HHH cannot possibly reach its own "return" instruction final halt
state.
>
That is not a meaningful prediction because a complete and unlimited
emulation of DDD by HHH never happens.
>
A complete emulation is not required to correctly predict that a
complete emulation would never halt.
What do we care about a complete simulation? HHH isn't doing one.
>
>
Please go read how Mike corrected you.
>
>
Lol, dude...  I mentioned nothing about complete/incomplete simulations.
>
 *You corrected Joes most persistent error*
She made sure to ignore this correction.
 
But while we're here - a complete simulation of input D() would clearly halt.
 _DDD()
[00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
[00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
[00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
[0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
[0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
[00002182] 5d         pop ebp
[00002183] c3         ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
 A complete simulation *by HHH* remains stuck in
infinite recursion until aborted.
It is aborted, so the infinite recursion is just a dream. Dreams are no substitute for facts.
The complete simulation of the HHH that *aborts* does not remain stuck, as proven when it is simulated by e.g. HHH1 or UTM. No abort is needed to simulate it up to the end. But when simulated by itself, it is aborted prematurely.
We are talking about the HHH that aborts. When we want a complete simulation of it, we don't want to change this input of a HHH that aborts to an HHH that does not abort.
We know that you are cheating, by using the Root variable, so that the aborting HHH simulates another input, namely the non-aborting HHH.

 Termination analyzers / halt deciders are only required
to correctly predict the behavior of their inputs.
Exactly. And the input is a program based on the HHH that aborts and halts.

 Termination analyzers / halt deciders are only required
to correctly predict the behavior of their inputs, thus
the behavior of non-inputs is outside of their domain.
So, it make no sense to dream about a HHH that does not halt when simulating a HHH that does halt. The HHH that does not halt is a non-input and outside the domain.
It seems that you are unable to see the difference between the simulator and its input. The problem is that a simulator cannot possibly simulate correctly when its own algorithm is part of the input.

Date Sujet#  Auteur
2 Aug 24 * Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?395olcott
2 Aug 24 +* Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?11Richard Damon
3 Aug 24 i`* Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?10olcott
3 Aug 24 i `* Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?9Richard Damon
3 Aug 24 i  `* Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?8olcott
3 Aug 24 i   `* Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?7Richard Damon
3 Aug 24 i    `* Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?6olcott
3 Aug 24 i     `* Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?5Richard Damon
3 Aug 24 i      `* Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?4olcott
3 Aug 24 i       `* Re: Olcott is too stupid to know that only the DDD correctly simulated by onlly the HHH that doesn't abort cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?3Richard Damon
3 Aug 24 i        `* Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated,by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?2olcott
3 Aug 24 i         `- Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated,by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?1Richard Damon
3 Aug 24 +* Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?287Fred. Zwarts
3 Aug 24 i`* Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?286olcott
3 Aug 24 i +* Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?284Fred. Zwarts
3 Aug 24 i i`* Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?283olcott
3 Aug 24 i i +- Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?1Fred. Zwarts
3 Aug 24 i i `* Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?281Richard Damon
3 Aug 24 i i  `* Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?280olcott
3 Aug 24 i i   +* Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?278Richard Damon
3 Aug 24 i i   i`* Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?277olcott
3 Aug 24 i i   i `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?276Richard Damon
3 Aug 24 i i   i  `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?275olcott
3 Aug 24 i i   i   +* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?29Richard Damon
3 Aug 24 i i   i   i`* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?28olcott
3 Aug 24 i i   i   i `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?27Richard Damon
3 Aug 24 i i   i   i  `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?26olcott
3 Aug 24 i i   i   i   `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?25Richard Damon
3 Aug 24 i i   i   i    `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?24olcott
3 Aug 24 i i   i   i     `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?23Richard Damon
3 Aug 24 i i   i   i      `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?22olcott
3 Aug 24 i i   i   i       `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD21Richard Damon
3 Aug 24 i i   i   i        `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD20olcott
3 Aug 24 i i   i   i         `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD19Richard Damon
3 Aug 24 i i   i   i          `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD18olcott
4 Aug 24 i i   i   i           `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD17Richard Damon
4 Aug 24 i i   i   i            `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD16olcott
4 Aug 24 i i   i   i             `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD15Richard Damon
4 Aug 24 i i   i   i              `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD14olcott
4 Aug 24 i i   i   i               `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD13Richard Damon
4 Aug 24 i i   i   i                `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD12olcott
4 Aug 24 i i   i   i                 `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD11Richard Damon
4 Aug 24 i i   i   i                  `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD10olcott
4 Aug 24 i i   i   i                   +* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD3Richard Damon
4 Aug 24 i i   i   i                   i`* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD2olcott
4 Aug 24 i i   i   i                   i `- Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD1Richard Damon
5 Aug 24 i i   i   i                   `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD6Mikko
5 Aug 24 i i   i   i                    `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD5olcott
7 Aug 24 i i   i   i                     `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state? BUT ONLY that DDD4Mikko
7 Aug 24 i i   i   i                      `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?3olcott
8 Aug 24 i i   i   i                       +- Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?1Richard Damon
8 Aug 24 i i   i   i                       `- Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?1Mikko
4 Aug 24 i i   i   `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?245Fred. Zwarts
4 Aug 24 i i   i    `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?244olcott
4 Aug 24 i i   i     `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?243Richard Damon
4 Aug 24 i i   i      `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?242olcott
4 Aug 24 i i   i       +- Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?1Richard Damon
5 Aug 24 i i   i       +* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?236Mikko
5 Aug 24 i i   i       i`* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?235olcott
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i +* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?25Richard Damon
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i`* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?24olcott
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?23Richard Damon
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i  `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?22olcott
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i   +* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?4wij
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i   i`* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?3olcott
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i   i +- Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?1Richard Damon
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i   i `- Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?1wij
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i   +- Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?1Richard Damon
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i   `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?16Mike Terry
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i    +* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?14olcott
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i    i+* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?5Richard Damon
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i    ii`* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?4olcott
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i    ii `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?3Richard Damon
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i    ii  `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?2olcott
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i    ii   `- Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?1Richard Damon
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i    i`* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?8Mike Terry
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i    i `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?7olcott
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i    i  +* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?5Mike Terry
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i    i  i+* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?3olcott
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i    i  ii`* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?2Mike Terry
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i    i  ii `- Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?1olcott
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i    i  i`- Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?1olcott
7 Aug 24 i i   i       i i    i  `- Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?1Richard Damon
6 Aug 24 i i   i       i i    `- Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?1Richard Damon
7 Aug 24 i i   i       i `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?209Mikko
7 Aug 24 i i   i       i  `* HHH computes the mapping from its input finite sting to the actual behavior specified by this finite string208olcott
7 Aug 24 i i   i       i   +* Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it206joes
7 Aug 24 i i   i       i   i+* Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it204olcott
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   ii`* Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it203Richard Damon
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   ii `* Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- never reaches its halt state202olcott
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   ii  `* Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- never reaches its halt state201Richard Damon
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   ii   +* Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- never reaches its halt state2olcott
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   ii   i`- Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- HHH never reaches its halt state so never decides, or it decides wrong.1Richard Damon
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   ii   +* Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- never reaches its halt state2olcott
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   ii   i`- Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- never reaches its halt state1Richard Damon
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   ii   +* Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- never reaches its halt state2olcott
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   ii   i`- Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- never reaches its halt state1Richard Damon
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   ii   +* Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- never reaches its halt state2olcott
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   ii   i`- Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- never reaches its halt state1Richard Damon
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   ii   +* Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- never reaches its halt state2olcott
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   ii   i`- Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- never reaches its halt state1Richard Damon
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   ii   +* Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- never reaches its halt state186olcott
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   ii   +* Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- never reaches its halt state2olcott
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   ii   `* Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- never reaches its halt state2olcott
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   i`- Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it1Mikko
8 Aug 24 i i   i       i   `- Re: HHH computes the mapping from its input finite sting to the actual behavior specified by this finite string (Which is the results of running the input)1Richard Damon
7 Aug 24 i i   i       `* Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction final state?4Keith Thompson
4 Aug 24 i i   `- Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?1Fred. Zwarts
3 Aug 24 i `- Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?1Richard Damon
3 Aug 24 `* Re: Who here is too stupid to know that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return instruction?96Mikko

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