Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser

Liste des GroupesRevenir à theory 
Sujet : Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser
De : polcott333 (at) *nospam* gmail.com (olcott)
Groupes : comp.theory
Date : 24. Aug 2024, 14:24:35
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <vacmuj$1d5dd$2@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 8/24/2024 5:16 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-08-24 01:10:49 +0000, Mike Terry said:
 
On 23/08/2024 22:07, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
joes <noreply@example.org> writes:
>
Am Wed, 21 Aug 2024 20:55:52 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>
Professor Sipser clearly agreed that an H that does a finite simulation
of D is to predict the behavior of an unlimited simulation of D.
>
If the simulator *itself* would not abort. The H called by D is,
by construction, the same and *does* abort.
>
We don't really know what context Sipser was given.  I got in touch at
the time so do I know he had enough context to know that PO's ideas were
"wacky" and that had agreed to what he considered a "minor remark".
>
Since PO considers his words finely crafted and key to his so-called
work I think it's clear that Sipser did not take the "minor remark" he
agreed to to mean what PO takes it to mean!  My own take if that he
(Sipser) read it as a general remark about how to determine some cases,
i.e. that D names an input that H can partially simulate to determine
it's halting or otherwise.  We all know or could construct some such
cases.
>
Exactly my reading.  It makes Sipser's agreement natural, because it is both correct [with sensible interpretation of terms], and moreover describes an obvious strategy that a partial decider might use that can decide halting for some specific cases.  No need for Sipser to be deceptive or misleading here, when the truth suffices.  (In particular no need to employ "tricksy" vacuous truth get out clauses just to get PO off his back as some have suggested.)
>
So that PO will have no cause to quote me as supporting his case:  what Sipser understood he was agreeing to was NOT what PO interprets it as meaning.  Sipser would not agree that the conclusion applies in PO's HHH(DDD) scenario, where DDD halts.
 An important part of the agreement is "H correctly determines" which
does not happen in HHH(DDD).
 
<MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
     If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
     until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never
     stop running unless aborted then
     H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
     specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
</MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
int DD()
{
   int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
   if (Halt_Status)
     HERE: goto HERE;
   return Halt_Status;
}
On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
 > I don't think that is the shell game.  PO really /has/ an H
 > (it's trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines
 > that P(P) *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.
...
 > But H determines (correctly) that D would not halt if it
 > were not halted.  That much is a truism.
--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Date Sujet#  Auteur
20 Aug 24 * Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5326olcott
20 Aug 24 +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5323Richard Damon
20 Aug 24 i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5322olcott
20 Aug 24 i `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5321Richard Damon
20 Aug 24 i  +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V515olcott
20 Aug 24 i  i+* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V55joes
20 Aug 24 i  ii`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V54olcott
21 Aug 24 i  ii +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V51Richard Damon
21 Aug 24 i  ii +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V51Mikko
27 Aug 24 i  ii `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V51Mikko
20 Aug 24 i  i+* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V58Fred. Zwarts
20 Aug 24 i  ii`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V57olcott
20 Aug 24 i  ii +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V53joes
20 Aug 24 i  ii i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V52olcott
21 Aug 24 i  ii i `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V51Richard Damon
21 Aug 24 i  ii +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V51Richard Damon
21 Aug 24 i  ii `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V52Fred. Zwarts
27 Aug 24 i  ii  `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V51Mikko
27 Aug 24 i  i`- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V51Mikko
20 Aug 24 i  `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5305olcott
21 Aug 24 i   `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5304Richard Damon
21 Aug 24 i    `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser303olcott
21 Aug 24 i     +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser300Richard Damon
21 Aug 24 i     i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser299olcott
21 Aug 24 i     i +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser296Richard Damon
21 Aug 24 i     i i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser295olcott
21 Aug 24 i     i i +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser293Richard Damon
21 Aug 24 i     i i i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser292olcott
21 Aug 24 i     i i i +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser284Mikko
21 Aug 24 i     i i i i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser283olcott
21 Aug 24 i     i i i i +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser3joes
21 Aug 24 i     i i i i i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser2olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Richard Damon
21 Aug 24 i     i i i i +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser11Fred. Zwarts
21 Aug 24 i     i i i i i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser10olcott
21 Aug 24 i     i i i i i +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser3joes
21 Aug 24 i     i i i i i i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser2olcott
27 Aug 24 i     i i i i i i `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Richard Damon
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser5Fred. Zwarts
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i  `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser4olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   +- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1joes
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Fred. Zwarts
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser267Richard Damon
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i+* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser3olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i ii+- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Richard Damon
27 Aug 24 i     i i i i ii`- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser263olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser262Richard Damon
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i  `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser261olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser84Richard Damon
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser83olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser82Richard Damon
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i  `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser81olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser29Fred. Zwarts
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i`* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser28olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Python
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser24joes
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser23olcott
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser5joes
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser4olcott
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i +- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i +- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1joes
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Fred. Zwarts
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser15Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser14olcott
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser11Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser10olcott
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser8Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser7olcott
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i i `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser6Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i i  `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser5olcott
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i i   +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser3Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i i   i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser2olcott
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i i   i `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i i   `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
27 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i i `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i +- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i i `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Fred. Zwarts
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i +- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Fred. Zwarts
27 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i i `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Fred. Zwarts
27 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Fred. Zwarts
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser31joes
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser30olcott
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i +- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser1Richard Damon
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser28joes
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i  `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser27olcott
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i   `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser26Fred. Zwarts
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i    `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- Execution trace of simulating termination analyzer HHH on DDD input25olcott
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input10joes
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i`* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input9olcott
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input8Fred. Zwarts
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i  +* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input3olcott
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i  i+- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input1Richard Damon
25 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i  i`- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input1Fred. Zwarts
25 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i  `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input4Mikko
25 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i   `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input3olcott
25 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i    +- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input1Richard Damon
25 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     i    `- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- trace of HHH on DDD input1Fred. Zwarts
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     +- Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- Execution trace of simulating termination analyzer HHH on DDD input1Richard Damon
24 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   i     `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser --- Execution trace of simulating termination analyzer HHH on DDD input13Fred. Zwarts
23 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Richard Damon
27 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   i   `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser19Mikko
22 Aug 24 i     i i i i i   `* Re: V5 --- Professor Sipser176joes
27 Aug 24 i     i i i i `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
21 Aug 24 i     i i i +* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser6Richard Damon
27 Aug 24 i     i i i `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
27 Aug 24 i     i i `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
21 Aug 24 i     i +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
27 Aug 24 i     i `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
21 Aug 24 i     +- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
27 Aug 24 i     `- Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5 --- Professor Sipser1Mikko
20 Aug 24 `* Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V52Mikko

Haut de la page

Les messages affichés proviennent d'usenet.

NewsPortal