Re: The actual truth is that ... industry standard stipulative definitions

On 10/14/24 12:05 PM, olcott wrote:

On 10/14/2024 6:21 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 10/14/24 5:53 AM, olcott wrote:

On 10/14/2024 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-10-13 12:49:01 +0000, Richard Damon said:
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On 10/12/24 8:11 PM, olcott wrote:

On 10/12/2024 3:25 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 10/12/24 1:36 PM, olcott wrote:

On 10/12/2024 12:13 PM, joes wrote:

Am Sat, 12 Oct 2024 11:07:29 -0500 schrieb olcott:

On 10/12/2024 9:43 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 10/12/24 6:17 AM, olcott wrote:

On 10/12/2024 3:13 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-10-11 21:13:18 +0000, joes said:

Am Fri, 11 Oct 2024 12:22:50 -0500 schrieb olcott:

On 10/11/2024 12:11 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 10/11/24 11:06 AM, olcott wrote:

On 10/11/2024 9:54 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 10/11/24 10:26 AM, olcott wrote:

On 10/11/2024 8:05 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 10/11/24 8:19 AM, olcott wrote:

On 10/11/2024 6:04 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 10/10/24 9:57 PM, olcott wrote:

On 10/10/2024 8:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 10/10/24 6:19 PM, olcott wrote:

On 10/10/2024 2:26 PM, wij wrote:

On Thu, 2024-10-10 at 17:05 +0000, Alan Mackenzie wrote:

Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> wrote:

On 2024-10-09 19:34:34 +0000, Alan Mackenzie said:

Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> wrote:

On 10/8/24 8:49 AM, Andy Walker wrote:

>

As soon you find out that they repeat the same over
and over, neither correcting their substantial errors
nor improving their arguments you have read enough.

olcott deliberately lies (he knows what is told, he
choose to distort). olcott

When the behavior of DDD emulated by HHH is the measure
then:

But since it isn't, your whole argument falls apart.

Ah a breakthrough.

And an admission that you are just working on a lie.

Perhaps you are unaware of how valid deductive inference
works.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man You can disagree that
the premise to my reasoning is true.
By changing my premise as the basis of your rebuttal you
commit the strawman error.

So, how do you get from the DEFINITION of Halting being a
behavior of the actual machine, to something that can be
talked about by a PARTIAL emulation with a different final
behavior.

My whole point in this thread is that it is incorrect for you
to say that my reasoning is invalid on the basis that you do
not agree with one of my premises.

The issue isn't that your premise is "incorrect", but it is
INVALID,
as it is based on the redefinition of fundamental words.

Premises cannot be invalid.

Of course they can be invalid,

It is a type mismatch error. Premises cannot be invalid.

So "af;kldsanflksadhtfawieohfnapio" is a valid premise?

"valid" is a term-of-the-art of deductive logical inference. When the
subject is deductive logical inference one cannot substitute the common
meaning for the term-of-the-art meaning.
This is a fallacy of equivocation error.

So "af;kldsanflksadhtfawieohfnapio" is an invalid premise?
>

>
"invalid" referring to a premise within the terms-of-the-art
of deductive logical inference is a type mismatch error use
of the term.
>
One could correctly say that a premise is untrue because
it is gibberish. One can never correctly say that a premise
is invalid within the terms-of-the-art.
>

>
No, untrue isn't the normal term of art, except it tri- (or other multi-) valued logics.
>

>
Within ordinary deductive logic there seems to be
no such thing as an invalid premise. Mathematical
logic may do this differently.

>
Nope, You just don't understand logic. Within Formal Logic there is a concept of an invalid premise, being a premise that can not have a logical interpretation.
>
Part of the problem is you don't seem to understand that words DO have multiple meanings, and you need to use the right one for the context.

>
The meaning of invalid is basically the same: a thing is invalid if it is
not what it is claimed or required to be. The differences in definitions
are just adaptations to the details of different requirements.
>

>
*Validity and Soundness*
A deductive argument is said to be valid if and only if it takes a form that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion nevertheless to be false. Otherwise, a deductive argument is said to be invalid.
>
A deductive argument is sound if and only if it is both valid, and all of its premises are actually true. Otherwise, a deductive argument is unsound.
>
https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/
>

>
And, your "premise" isn't actually a statement of fact,

 Before we can move forward on this we must be using terminology
in the same way. You have to stop being so sloppy in your use of
terminology.
 Within the analytical framework that I am using deductive
logical inference, calling a premise invalid is incorrect.

No, it is a term I used to apply to a premise that could not be used because it had no meaning in the system.
You are attempting to create a definition of a term that is already defind.
That is just INVALID.

 Trying to change to a different analytical framework than
the one that I am stipulating is the strawman deception.
*Essentially an intentional fallacy of equivocation error*
 

But, you claim to be working on that Halting Problem, so the analytical framework is DEFINED, and can not be changed.
Trying to do that is just INVALID.

I start with premises that are stipulated to be true
and apply true preserving operations to these premises
thus deriving a deductively sound conclusion.

And that premis is INVALID because it is in direct contradiction to the rules of the system.

 A stipulative definition is a type of definition in which
a new or currently existing term is given a new specific
meaning for the purposes of argument or discussion in a
given context. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition

Right, but, in a formal system you can not "stipulate" a defimition that is contrary to the terms of art in the system.

 *Disagreeing with a stipulative definition is incorrect*

Pointing out that the definition are invalid is not.
YOU are "incorrect" to try to stipulate them.

 My stipulative definition that a C function only terminates
when it reaches its return statement is industry standard
in the field of the termination analysis of C functions.

Right, but the behavior, to be a property of the function, means that all the behavior of the function, and everything it calls needs to be taken into account. And, as has been shown, the C function DDD does return when it is calling the same code of HHH that returned 0 from HHH(DDD), so by your admitted critrea, DDD is Halting.

 My stipulative definition of the correct emulation of the
x86 code of a C function by an emulator is also industry
standard for x86 emulators.

Except that your stipulation of "correct emulation" is in violation of the ACTUAL DEFINITION needed to apply emulation as a replacement for direct execution, Yes, some fields consider partial emulations to be able to be called "correct" but those fields also don't consider the fact that the simulation didn't reach the end state as an indication that the machine being emulated in non-halting.
Again, you are just proving that you don't understand what you are talking about. Your problem is you have no concept of context, because you don't seem to actually understand anything, but just seemed to have learned a few scattered tidbits by rote. (Which is probably why you accuse everyone else of just knowing by rote, as you seem to like to project).

 HHH correctly emulates the x86 machine code bytes of its
input DDD in the order that they specify beginning with
the first bytes. Control flow instructions can and do alter
the linear first to last order. When the emulated DDD calls
HHH then HHH emulates itself emulating DDD.
 

Right, and then gives up before it can determine the correct answer, becuase it needs to in order to be a decider.
That need to abort does NOT negate the requirement for it to actually determine the behavior of the full correct emulation to be correct.
Since HHH DOES abort and return 0, this DDD also calls an HHH that aborts its emulation and returns to it, and thus the CORRECT behavior for DDD is halting.