Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years --- proves itself correct

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Sujet : Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years --- proves itself correct
De : richard (at) *nospam* damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Groupes : comp.theory
Date : 02. Mar 2025, 22:17:12
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Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <f09c7ef86be311a5fd9f27b038cd3cd5133154da@i2pn2.org>
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On 3/2/25 4:11 PM, olcott wrote:
On 3/2/2025 2:40 PM, Andy Walker wrote:
>
   http://www.cuboid.me.uk/anw/G12FCO/lect18.html
>
[start at the third paragraph], published in 1996, wherein is the proof
that a simulating halt decider can no more exist than any other halt
decider
 [the third paragraph]
For these cases, we can turn to our second weapon -- emulation. We want to know whether a program halts, so we try it. If it halts, then we know the answer. If it doesn't halt, then `it must be in a loop', so we monitor its state and `detect the loop'. Sadly, although this is in one sense correct, it is a false dichotomy. At any given moment as the emulation proceeds, we are in one of not two but three states: the program has halted, or it is looping, or it is still running and has not yet entered a loop. It's the third case that kills us -- we just have to keep going, and wait for one of the other two things to happen. The trouble is that it may be that neither of them ever happens -- which is why `it must be in a loop' was in quotes above.
 _DD()
[00002133] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
[00002134] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
[00002136] 51         push ecx      ; make space for local
[00002137] 6833210000 push 00002133 ; push DD
[0000213c] e882f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH(DD)
[00002141] 83c404     add esp,+04
[00002144] 8945fc     mov [ebp-04],eax
[00002147] 837dfc00   cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
[0000214b] 7402       jz 0000214f
[0000214d] ebfe       jmp 0000214d
[0000214f] 8b45fc     mov eax,[ebp-04]
[00002152] 8be5       mov esp,ebp
[00002154] 5d         pop ebp
[00002155] c3         ret
Size in bytes:(0035) [00002155]
 That analysis is derived from an incorrect perspective.
DD emulated by HHH according to the behavior that DD
specifies cannot possibly reach its own "ret" instruction
and terminate normally.
But YOUR perspective is the incorrect one, as it is againt the definitions.
Halting is a property of the Machine, and its direct execution, not can it be emulated by a decider.

 This process computes the mapping from the actual input
(not any other damn thing) finite string to the non
terminating behavior that this finite specifies when
it calls its own emulator in recursive emulation.
And the MAPPING is DEFINED to be input -> 1 if UTM(input) halts, and input -> 0 if UTM(input) does not halt.
If your HHH isn't a UTM, and a UTM BY DEFINITION EXACTLY reproduces the behavior of the input, thus can't halt if the input is non-halting, then its emulation doesn't matter.

 Another different instance that does not call its own
emulator in recursive emulation is not the same damn thing.
 
Which means you don't understand the fundamental property that all copies of a computation (program + input) do exactly the same thing, as they are not allowed to depend on anything other than there code and the input.
Your problem is that your DD isn't a program, as it doesn't include all its code, and you "Decider" isn't either, as it looks at memory other than that provided by the input, namely to see what HHH is.
Thus, your whole premsis is built on LIES and ERRORS.

Date Sujet#  Auteur
1 Mar 25 * DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code96olcott
1 Mar 25 +* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code8dbush
1 Mar 25 i`* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code7olcott
1 Mar 25 i +- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1wij
1 Mar 25 i +* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code4dbush
1 Mar 25 i i`* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code3olcott
1 Mar 25 i i +- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1dbush
1 Mar 25 i i `- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1dbush
1 Mar 25 i `- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1dbush
1 Mar 25 +* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code52Mikko
2 Mar 25 i`* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code51olcott
2 Mar 25 i +* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code41dbush
2 Mar 25 i i`* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code40olcott
2 Mar 25 i i `* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code39dbush
2 Mar 25 i i  `* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code38olcott
2 Mar 25 i i   `* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code37dbush
2 Mar 25 i i    `* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code36olcott
2 Mar 25 i i     +- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1dbush
2 Mar 25 i i     `* Copyright34joes
2 Mar 25 i i      `* Re: Copyright33Mikko
2 Mar 25 i i       `* Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years32olcott
2 Mar 25 i i        +* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years14Richard Heathfield
2 Mar 25 i i        i`* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years13olcott
2 Mar 25 i i        i +* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years11Andy Walker
2 Mar 25 i i        i i`* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years --- proves itself correct10olcott
2 Mar 25 i i        i i +- Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years --- proves itself correct1Richard Damon
3 Mar 25 i i        i i `* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years --- proves itself correct8Andy Walker
3 Mar 25 i i        i i  `* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years --- proves itself correct7olcott
3 Mar 25 i i        i i   `* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years --- proves itself correct6Fred. Zwarts
3 Mar 25 i i        i i    `* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years --- proves itself correct5olcott
3 Mar 25 i i        i i     +* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years --- proves itself correct2joes
3 Mar 25 i i        i i     i`- Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years --- proves itself correct1olcott
3 Mar 25 i i        i i     +- Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years --- proves itself correct1Fred. Zwarts
4 Mar 25 i i        i i     `- Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years --- proves itself correct1Richard Damon
2 Mar 25 i i        i `- Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years1Richard Damon
3 Mar 25 i i        +* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years14Richard Damon
3 Mar 25 i i        i`* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years13olcott
3 Mar 25 i i        i +* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years9Richard Damon
3 Mar 25 i i        i i`* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years8olcott
3 Mar 25 i i        i i `* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years7Richard Damon
3 Mar 25 i i        i i  +* Far less than no rebuttal at all5olcott
3 Mar 25 i i        i i  i+* Re: Far less than no rebuttal at all3Fred. Zwarts
3 Mar 25 i i        i i  ii`* Re: Far less than no rebuttal at all2olcott
4 Mar 25 i i        i i  ii `- Re: Far less than no rebuttal at all1Fred. Zwarts
4 Mar 25 i i        i i  i`- Re: Far less than no rebuttal at all1Richard Damon
4 Mar 25 i i        i i  `- Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years1Richard Damon
3 Mar 25 i i        i `* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years3Fred. Zwarts
3 Mar 25 i i        i  `* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years2olcott
4 Mar 25 i i        i   `- Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years1Richard Damon
3 Mar 25 i i        `* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years3Mikko
3 Mar 25 i i         `* Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years2olcott
4 Mar 25 i i          `- Re: Copyright for "simulating halt decider" by Olcott for many years1Mikko
2 Mar 25 i +* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code5Richard Damon
2 Mar 25 i i`* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code4olcott
2 Mar 25 i i +- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1joes
2 Mar 25 i i +- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1Mikko
2 Mar 25 i i `- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1Richard Damon
2 Mar 25 i `* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code4Mikko
2 Mar 25 i  `* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code3olcott
2 Mar 25 i   +- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1wij
3 Mar 25 i   `- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1Richard Damon
1 Mar 25 +- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1Fred. Zwarts
1 Mar 25 `* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code34Richard Damon
1 Mar 25  `* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code33olcott
1 Mar 25   +* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code15Fred. Zwarts
1 Mar 25   i`* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code14olcott
1 Mar 25   i +* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code12Fred. Zwarts
1 Mar 25   i i`* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code11olcott
1 Mar 25   i i +* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code3Fred. Zwarts
2 Mar 25   i i i`* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code2olcott
2 Mar 25   i i i `- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1joes
1 Mar 25   i i `* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code7Fred. Zwarts
2 Mar 25   i i  `* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code6olcott
2 Mar 25   i i   +* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code3Richard Damon
2 Mar 25   i i   i`* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code2olcott
2 Mar 25   i i   i `- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1Richard Damon
2 Mar 25   i i   +- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1joes
2 Mar 25   i i   `- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1Fred. Zwarts
1 Mar 25   i `- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1Richard Damon
1 Mar 25   `* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code17Richard Damon
1 Mar 25    `* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code16olcott
1 Mar 25     +* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code8Fred. Zwarts
1 Mar 25     i`* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code7olcott
1 Mar 25     i +- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1Richard Damon
1 Mar 25     i +* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code4Fred. Zwarts
2 Mar 25     i i`* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code3olcott
2 Mar 25     i i +- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1Richard Damon
2 Mar 25     i i `- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1joes
2 Mar 25     i `- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1joes
1 Mar 25     `* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code7Richard Damon
2 Mar 25      `* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code6olcott
2 Mar 25       +* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code3Richard Damon
2 Mar 25       i`* Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code2olcott
2 Mar 25       i `- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1Richard Damon
2 Mar 25       +- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1joes
2 Mar 25       `- Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code1Fred. Zwarts

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