Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met

Liste des GroupesRevenir à theory 
Sujet : Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met
De : polcott333 (at) *nospam* gmail.com (olcott)
Groupes : comp.theory
Date : 21. May 2025, 16:41:45
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <100ks7p$2tae8$2@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 5/21/2025 3:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-05-20 18:31:01 +0000, Mr Flibble said:
 
On Tue, 20 May 2025 19:51:59 +0200, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>
Op 20.mei.2025 om 16:22 schreef olcott:
On 5/20/2025 2:00 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-05-20 04:10:54 +0000, olcott said:
>
On 5/19/2025 5:12 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-05-18 19:18:21 +0000, olcott said:
>
On 5/18/2025 2:08 PM, joes wrote:
Am Sun, 18 May 2025 12:28:05 -0500 schrieb olcott:
On 5/18/2025 10:21 AM, Mike Terry wrote:
On 18/05/2025 10:09, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-05-17 17:15:14 +0000, olcott said:
>
HHH(DDD) does not base its decision on the actual behavior of
DDD after it has aborted its simulation of DDD, instead it
bases its decision on a different HHH/DDD pair that never
aborts.
>
This is why HHH does not satisfy "H correctly determines that
its simulated D would never stop running unless aborted". If
HHH bases its decision on anything else than what its actual
input actually specifies it does not decide correctly.
>
Right.  It seems to be a recent innovation in PO's wording that
he has started using the phrase "..bases its decision on a
different *HHH/DDD pair* ..".
>
Thus SHD must report on a different SHD/Infinite_Loop pair where
this hypothetical instance of itself never aborts.
This, the simulator. The input still calls the same real aborting
HHH.
>
If H always reports on the behavior of its simulated input after
it aborts then every input including infinite_loop would be
determined to be halting.
Yes, that is why H is wrong.
>
Instead H must report on the hypothetical H/D input pair where
the very same H has been made to not abort its input.
Just no.
>
*H correctly determines that its simulated D*
*would never stop running unless aborted*
by a hypothetical instance of itself that never aborts.
H does stop running when simulated without aborting, because it
aborts.
>
>
H is required to report on the behavior of D in the case where a
hypothetical instance of itself never aborts its simulated D.
>
When the hypothetical H never aborts its simulated D then:
(a) Simulated D  NEVER HALTS (b) Executed D() NEVER HALTS (c)
Executed H() NEVER HALTS (d) Everything that H calls NEVER HALTS
>
You forgot (e) H does not report
>
HHH is required to report, that is why it must always report on the
behavior of the hypothetical H/D pair and not the actual behavior of
the actual H/D pair for every non-terminating input.
>
Every decider is required to report. But your (c) above prevents the
hypothetical H from reporting. Therefore the hypothetical H is not a
decider.
>
>
I wish that people would pay attention.
People only glance at a couple of words that I say then artificially
contrive a fake rebuttal.
>
*We are ONLY measuring HHH/DDD against this criteria*
<MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
    If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
    until *H correctly determines that its simulated D*
    *would never stop running unless aborted* then
>
>
We use the same criteria. We see that there is no correct simulation and
that H does not correctly determine that its simulated D would never
stop running. In fact the input specified to H contains code to abort,
so a simulation of this input without abort would lead to a natural
halt.
>
So, because the criteria are not met, we see that Sipser agreed to a
vacuous statement.
>
But you do not pay attention to what is said, because you stay in
rebuttal mode and, after seeing just a few words, keep repeating
statements that are proven to be irrelevant, without even touching the
fact that you are proven to be irrelevant.
>
The halting problem is defined in terms of UTMs with infinite tape so
 It usually isn't. There are many variants of the problem but if you
have an oracle for one of the you can solve them all. Usually an UTM
is not mentioned in the problem statement. The tape is potentially
infinite but one execution of a decider never uses more than a finite
segment of the tape.
 
I think that I am the original inventor of
the notion of simulating halt decider as it
pertains to the halting problem proofs.
Computer Science professor Eric Hehner PhD
was the first one that noticed this:
*Problems with the Halting Problem*
 From a programmer's point of view, if we apply
an interpreter to a program text that includes
a call to that same interpreter with that same
text as argument, then we have an infinite loop.
https://www.cs.toronto.edu/~hehner/PHP.pdf
Professor Hehner did not notice that the above
could be used to create a simulating halt decider
that rejects the conventional HP counter-example
input as non-halting.
--
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Date Sujet#  Auteur
15 May 25 * Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C231olcott
15 May 25 +* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C18olcott
15 May 25 i+* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C12olcott
16 May 25 ii+* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C7olcott
16 May 25 iii+* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C2olcott
16 May 25 iiii`- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Richard Damon
16 May 25 iii`* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C4Mikko
16 May 25 iii `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C3olcott
16 May 25 iii  +- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Richard Damon
17 May 25 iii  `- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Mikko
16 May 25 ii`* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C4Mikko
16 May 25 ii `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C3olcott
16 May 25 ii  +- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Richard Damon
17 May 25 ii  `- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Mikko
16 May 25 i`* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C5Mikko
16 May 25 i `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C4olcott
16 May 25 i  +- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1olcott
16 May 25 i  +- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Richard Damon
17 May 25 i  `- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Mikko
16 May 25 `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C212olcott
16 May 25  +* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C61Richard Heathfield
16 May 25  i`* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C60olcott
16 May 25  i +* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C3Richard Heathfield
16 May 25  i i`* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C2olcott
16 May 25  i i `- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Richard Heathfield
16 May 25  i `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C56Mikko
16 May 25  i  `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C55olcott
16 May 25  i   +* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C29Richard Heathfield
17 May 25  i   i`* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C28olcott
17 May 25  i   i +* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C6Richard Damon
17 May 25  i   i i`* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C5olcott
17 May 25  i   i i `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C4Richard Damon
17 May 25  i   i i  `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C3olcott
17 May 25  i   i i   +- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Fred. Zwarts
17 May 25  i   i i   `- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Richard Damon
17 May 25  i   i `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C21Richard Heathfield
17 May 25  i   i  `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C20olcott
17 May 25  i   i   +* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C15Richard Heathfield
17 May 25  i   i   i`* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C14olcott
17 May 25  i   i   i `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C13Richard Heathfield
17 May 25  i   i   i  `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C12olcott
17 May 25  i   i   i   +* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C5Richard Heathfield
17 May 25  i   i   i   i`* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C4olcott
17 May 25  i   i   i   i `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C3Richard Heathfield
17 May 25  i   i   i   i  `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C2olcott
17 May 25  i   i   i   i   `- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Richard Heathfield
17 May 25  i   i   i   `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C6Richard Damon
18 May 25  i   i   i    `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C5Richard Heathfield
19 May 25  i   i   i     `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C4Mikko
19 May 25  i   i   i      `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C3Richard Heathfield
19 May 25  i   i   i       `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C2Mikko
19 May 25  i   i   i        `- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Richard Heathfield
17 May 25  i   i   `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C4Richard Damon
17 May 25  i   i    `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C3olcott
17 May 25  i   i     +- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Fred. Zwarts
17 May 25  i   i     `- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Richard Damon
16 May 25  i   +* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C3Richard Damon
17 May 25  i   i`* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C2olcott
17 May 25  i   i `- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Richard Damon
17 May 25  i   `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C22Mikko
18 May 25  i    `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C21Richard Heathfield
18 May 25  i     `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C20Ben Bacarisse
19 May 25  i      +* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C18Richard Heathfield
19 May 25  i      i`* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C17Ben Bacarisse
19 May 25  i      i `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C16olcott
19 May 25  i      i  +* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C14Richard Heathfield
19 May 25  i      i  i`* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C13olcott
19 May 25  i      i  i +* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C11Richard Heathfield
19 May 25  i      i  i i+* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C8Richard Heathfield
19 May 25  i      i  i ii`* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C7Richard Heathfield
19 May 25  i      i  i ii `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C6olcott
19 May 25  i      i  i ii  +* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C4Richard Heathfield
19 May 25  i      i  i ii  i`* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C3olcott
19 May 25  i      i  i ii  i +- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Richard Heathfield
19 May 25  i      i  i ii  i `- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Mikko
19 May 25  i      i  i ii  `- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Richard Damon
19 May 25  i      i  i i+- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Mikko
19 May 25  i      i  i i`- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Richard Damon
19 May 25  i      i  i `- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Mikko
19 May 25  i      i  `- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Mikko
19 May 25  i      `- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Mikko
16 May 25  +* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C5Richard Damon
16 May 25  i`* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C4olcott
16 May 25  i `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C3Richard Damon
16 May 25  i  `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C2olcott
16 May 25  i   `- Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C1Richard Damon
16 May 25  `* Re: Overcoming the proof of undecidability of the Halting Problem by a simple example in C145Mikko
16 May 25   `* Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met144olcott
17 May 25    `* Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met143Mikko
17 May 25     `* Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met142olcott
17 May 25      +* Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met3Richard Damon
17 May 25      i`* Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met2olcott
18 May 25      i `- Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met1Mikko
18 May 25      `* Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met138Mikko
18 May 25       +* Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met131Mike Terry
18 May 25       i`* Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met130olcott
18 May 25       i +* Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met28joes
18 May 25       i i`* Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met27olcott
18 May 25       i i +- Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met1Richard Damon
19 May 25       i i `* Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met25Mikko
20 May 25       i i  `* Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met24olcott
18 May 25       i `* Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met101Richard Damon
18 May 25       `* Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met6olcott

Haut de la page

Les messages affichés proviennent d'usenet.

NewsPortal