On 5/31/2025 5:27 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
On 31/05/2025 20:26, dbush wrote:
On 5/31/2025 2:38 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/31/2025 11:59 AM, dbush wrote:
On 5/31/2025 12:48 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/31/2025 7:39 AM, dbush wrote:
On 5/31/2025 2:41 AM, olcott wrote:
On 5/30/2025 8:16 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/30/25 11:41 AM, olcott wrote:
On 5/30/2025 3:45 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-05-29 18:10:39 +0000, olcott said:
>
On 5/29/2025 12:34 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>
🧠 Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem
>
In the classical framework of computation theory (Turing machines),
simulation is not equivalent to execution, though they can approximate one
another.
>
To the best of my knowledge a simulated input
always has the exact same behavior as the directly
executed input unless this simulated input calls
its own simulator.
>
The simulation of the behaviour should be equivalent to the real
behaviour.
>
That is the same as saying a function with infinite
recursion must have the same behavior as a function
without infinite recursion.
>
Nope. Where does it say that?
>
>
_DDD()
[00002192] 55 push ebp
[00002193] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00002195] 6892210000 push 00002192
[0000219a] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 // call HHH
[0000219f] 83c404 add esp,+04
[000021a2] 5d pop ebp
[000021a3] c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [000021a3]
>
DDD emulated by HHH must be aborted. // otherwise infinite recursion
DDD emulated by HHH1 need not be aborted.
>
>
>
And the simulation performed by each of these is the same up to the point that HHH aborts, as you have admitted on the record:
>
>
No moron they are not.
HHH performs one whole recursive emulation of DDD
than HHH1 ever does BEFORE HHH EVER ABORTS.
>
>
Nope, if that was true you would have previously identified the divergence but failed to do so.
>
>
The code has proved that it is true for three years.
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False.
>
That you are unable to see that the side by side code traces are exactly the same up the the point that HHH aborts is not a rebuttal.
Right. I've presented such comparisons for PO on multiple occasions, but it's like he looks at the post, and simply can't see what it's saying - like there's a big hole in the post or something. It brings to mind the Oliver Sacks book "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat".
Mike.
We cannot do a separate side-by-side execution trace of
HHH(DDD) and HHH1(DDD) because the DDD simulated by HHH1
calls HHH(DDD) as a part of this same simulation.
From the trace shown below we can see that HHH simulates
DDD one whole execution trace more than HHH1 does.
*It is only after this whole extra recursive emulation*
*divergence that HHH aborts its emulated DDD*
_DDD()
[00002183] 55 push ebp
[00002184] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00002186] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[0000218b] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
[00002190] 83c404 add esp,+04
[00002193] 5d pop ebp
[00002194] c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [00002194]
_main()
[000021a3] 55 push ebp
[000021a4] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[000021a6] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[000021ab] e843f3ffff call 000014f3 ; call HHH1
[000021b0] 83c404 add esp,+04
[000021b3] 33c0 xor eax,eax
[000021b5] 5d pop ebp
[000021b6] c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0020) [000021b6]
machine stack stack machine assembly
address address data code language
======== ======== ======== ========== =============
[000021a3][0010382d][00000000] 55 push ebp
[000021a4][0010382d][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[000021a6][00103829][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[000021ab][00103825][000021b0] e843f3ffff call 000014f3 ; call HHH1
New slave_stack at:1038d1
Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:1138d9
[00002183][001138c9][001138cd] 55 push ebp
[00002184][001138c9][001138cd] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00002186][001138c5][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[0000218b][001138c1][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
New slave_stack at:14e2f9
Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:15e301
[00002183][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 55 push ebp
[00002184][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00002186][0015e2ed][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[0000218b][0015e2e9][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
New slave_stack at:198d21
[00002183][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 55 push ebp
[00002184][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00002186][001a8d15][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[0000218b][001a8d11][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
[00002190][001138c9][001138cd] 83c404 add esp,+04
[00002193][001138cd][000015a8] 5d pop ebp
[00002194][001138d1][0003a980] c3 ret
[000021b0][0010382d][00000000] 83c404 add esp,+04
[000021b3][0010382d][00000000] 33c0 xor eax,eax
[000021b5][00103831][00000018] 5d pop ebp
[000021b6][00103835][00000000] c3 ret
Number of Instructions Executed(352831) == 5266 Pages
-- Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Geniushits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem
Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem
