Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem

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Sujet : Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem
De : polcott333 (at) *nospam* gmail.com (olcott)
Groupes : comp.theory
Date : 08. Jun 2025, 06:57:27
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <10238o7$3m1s3$1@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 6/8/2025 12:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-06-04 16:03:24 +0000, olcott said:
 
On 6/4/2025 2:26 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-06-03 20:25:51 +0000, olcott said:
>
On 6/3/2025 2:50 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-06-02 15:55:00 +0000, olcott said:
>
On 6/2/2025 2:02 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-06-02 03:32:28 +0000, olcott said:
>
On 6/1/2025 8:19 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 6/1/25 5:41 PM, olcott wrote:
On 6/1/2025 6:30 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-05-30 15:41:59 +0000, olcott said:
>
On 5/30/2025 3:45 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-05-29 18:10:39 +0000, olcott said:
>
On 5/29/2025 12:34 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>
🧠 Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem
>
In the classical framework of computation theory (Turing machines),
simulation is not equivalent to execution, though they can approximate one
another.
>
To the best of my knowledge a simulated input
always has the exact same behavior as the directly
executed input unless this simulated input calls
its own simulator.
>
The simulation of the behaviour should be equivalent to the real
behaviour.
>
That is the same as saying a function with infinite
recursion must have the same behavior as a function
without infinite recursion.
>
A function does not have a behaviour. A function has a value for
every argument in its domain.
>
A function is not recursive. A definition of a function can be
recursive. There may be another way to define the same function
without recursion.
>
A definition of a function may use infinite recursion if it is also
defined how that infinite recursion defines a value.
>
Anyway, from the meaning of "simulation" follows that a simulation
of a behaviour is (at least in some sense) similar to the real
behaviour. Otherwise no simulation has happened.
>
>
void DDD()
{
   HHH(DDD);
   return;
}
>
The *input* to simulating termination analyzer HHH(DDD)
specifies recursive simulation that can never reach its
*simulated "return" instruction final halt state*
>
*Every rebuttal to this changes the words*
>
>
No it doesn't, as HHH is defined to abort and simulation after finite time, and thus only does finite simulation.
>
>
See right there you changed the words.
I said nothing about finite or infinite simulation.
You said that I am wrong about something that I didn't even say.
>
Again you are trying a sraw man deception. RIchard Damon did not change
your words, he only wrote his own. He did not claim that you said anything
about "finite" or "infinite" but that you should understand the difference.
>
Unlike most people here I do understand that not
possibly reaching a final halt state *is* non-halting behavior.
>
You don't understand it correctly. Whether a computation is halting is a
feature of the computation, not a particular exectuion of that coputation.
A halting computation is a halting computation even if its execution is
discontinued before reaching the final halt state.
>
int main()
{
   DDD(); // Do you understand that the HHH(DDD) that this DDD
}        // calls is only accountable for the behavior of its
          // input, and thus NOT accountable for the behavior
          // of its caller?
>
I don't set any requirements on HHH. I just note that if HHH does not
return a value that means "halts" it is not a halt decider and not
even a partial halt decider, because the direct execution of DDD has
been shown to halt.
>
If HHH(DDD) is supposed to report on the behavior
of the direct execution of DDD()
dbush insists that it is required.
then that entails
that HHH must report on the behavior of its caller.>> This is not allowed even if it was possible.
 That prohibition is not in any relevant specification. The correctness
criterion is a comparison of the answer given by the decider cnadidate
to a complete execution of the computation.
 
--
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Date Sujet#  Auteur
29 May 25 * Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem238olcott
30 May 25 +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
30 May 25 `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem236Mikko
30 May 25  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem235olcott
31 May 25   +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem175Richard Damon
31 May 25   i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem174olcott
31 May 25   i +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem168dbush
31 May 25   i i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem167olcott
31 May 25   i i +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem165dbush
31 May 25   i i i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem164olcott
31 May 25   i i i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem163dbush
31 May 25   i i i  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem162Mike Terry
1 Jun 25   i i i   `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem161olcott
1 Jun 25   i i i    +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem159Mike Terry
1 Jun 25   i i i    i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem158olcott
1 Jun 25   i i i    i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem157Mike Terry
1 Jun 25   i i i    i  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem156olcott
1 Jun 25   i i i    i   +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
1 Jun 25   i i i    i   +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1dbush
1 Jun 25   i i i    i   `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem153Mike Terry
1 Jun 25   i i i    i    +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem13olcott
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i+* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem3Richard Damon
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem2olcott
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem9Mike Terry
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem8olcott
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i  +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem3Fred. Zwarts
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i  i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem2olcott
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i  i `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem4Mike Terry
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i   `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem3olcott
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i    `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem2Mike Terry
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i     `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1olcott
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1olcott
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem137Mike Terry
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i+* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem5André G. Isaak
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem4olcott
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem3André G. Isaak
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem2olcott
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii   `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1André G. Isaak
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i+* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem5olcott
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii+- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Fred. Zwarts
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem3Richard Damon
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem2olcott
4 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii  `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem126dbush
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem117Mike Terry
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i i+* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem114wij
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem113olcott
4 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
4 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem111Mikko
4 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem110olcott
6 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii   `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem109Mikko
6 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii    `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem108olcott
7 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii     `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem107Mikko
7 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii      `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem106olcott
8 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii       +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
8 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii       `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem104Mikko
8 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii        `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem103olcott
8 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii         +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
10 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii         `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem101Mikko
10 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii          `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem100olcott
10 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii           +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii           `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem98Mikko
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii            `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem97olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem49wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem48olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem47wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem46olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i   `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem45wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i    `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem44olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i     `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem43wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i      `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem42olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i       `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem41wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i        `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem40olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem38wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem37olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem35wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem34olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem33wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem32olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i   `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem31wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i    `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem30olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i     `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem29wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i      +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i      `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem27olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i       `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem26wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i        `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem25olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i         `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem24wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i          `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem23olcott
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem21wij
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem20olcott
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem19wij
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem18olcott
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i   +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem10wij
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i   i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem9olcott
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i   i +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem3wij
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i   i i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem2olcott
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i   i i `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i   i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem5Fred. Zwarts
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i   i  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem4olcott
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i   `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem7joes
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem46Mikko
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem2olcott
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem8olcott
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Mikko
1 Jun 25   i i i    `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
31 May 25   i i `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
31 May 25   i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem5Richard Damon
1 Jun 25   `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem59Mikko

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