Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem

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Sujet : Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem
De : wyniijj5 (at) *nospam* gmail.com (wij)
Groupes : comp.theory
Date : 11. Jun 2025, 15:45:35
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <b27d3b8f4040ac88721a7b772f675f9e1cbb2c03.camel@gmail.com>
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On Wed, 2025-06-11 at 09:40 -0500, olcott wrote:
On 6/11/2025 9:36 AM, wij wrote:
On Wed, 2025-06-11 at 09:20 -0500, olcott wrote:
On 6/11/2025 3:56 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-06-10 16:51:49 +0000, olcott said:
 
On 6/10/2025 2:12 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-06-08 05:38:26 +0000, olcott said:
 
On 6/8/2025 12:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-06-07 13:51:33 +0000, olcott said:
 
On 6/7/2025 3:13 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-06-06 16:17:48 +0000, olcott said:
 
On 6/6/2025 3:57 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-06-04 15:59:10 +0000, olcott said:
 
On 6/4/2025 2:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-06-03 20:00:51 +0000, olcott said:
 
On 6/3/2025 12:59 PM, wij wrote:
On Tue, 2025-06-03 at 16:38 +0100, Mike Terry wrote:
On 03/06/2025 13:45, dbush wrote:
On 6/2/2025 10:58 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
Even if presented with /direct observations/
contradicting his position, PO can (will) just
invent
new magical thinking that only he is smart enough to
understand, in order to somehow justify his
busted intuitions.
 
My favorite is that the directly executed D(D) doesn't
halt even though it looks like it does:
 
 
On 1/24/24 19:18, olcott wrote:
  > The directly executed D(D) reaches a final state and
exits normally.
  > BECAUSE ANOTHER ASPECT OF THE SAME COMPUTATION HAS
BEEN ABORTED,
  > Thus meeting the correct non-halting criteria if any
step of
  > a computation must be aborted to prevent its infinite
execution
  > then this computation DOES NOT HALT (even if it looks
like it does).
 
Right - magical thinking.
 
PO simply cannot clearly think through what's going on,
due to the multiple levels involved.  In his
head they all become a mush of confustions, but the
mystery here is why PO does not /realise/ that
he can't think his way through it?
 
When I try something that's beyond me, I soon realise I'm
not up to it.  Somehow PO tries, gets into
a total muddle, and concludes "My understanding of this
goes beyond that of everybody else, due to
my powers of unrivalved concentration equalled by almost
nobody on the planet, and my ability to
eliminate extraneous complexity".  How did PO ever start
down this path of delusions?  Not that that
matters one iota... :)
 
 
Mike.
 
People seem to keep addressing the logic of the implement
of POOH, but it does not matter how
H or D are implemented, because:
 
1. POOH is not about the Halting Problem (no logical
connection)
 
Likewise ZFC was not about what is now called naive set theory.
 
To a large extent it is. Both are intended to describe those
sets that
were tought to be usefult to think about. But the naive set
theory failed
because it is inconsistent. However, ZF excludes some sets
that some
people want to consider, e.g., the universal set, Quine's
atom. There is
no agreement whether do not satisfy the axiom of choice and
its various
consequences should be included or excluded, so both ZF and
ZFC are used.
 
Quine's atom is nonsense.
 
No, it is not. It is a set that one can assume to exist or not
to exist.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urelement#Quine_atoms
It is the same as every person that is their own father.
 
No, it is not the same. Being of ones own father is impossible
because
of the say the material world works. Imaginary things like sets
can be
imagined to work wichever way one wants to imagine, though a
consitent
imagination is more useful.
 
If that was true then one could imagine the
coherent set of properties of a square circle.
 
One can, much like you can imagine the coherent set of properties of
an impossible decider.
 
*CAN'T POSSIBLY REACH A FINAL STATE DOES ESTABLISH NOT HALTING*
 
Depends on what exactly your "can" and "possibly" mean. Anyway, DDD does
reach its final state, so its wrong to say that it can't.
 
Why do people always have to be damned liars and change
my words and then dishonestly apply their rebuttal to
these changed words.
 
If you don't tell why you do so why would anyone else?
 
 
I USE CUT-AND-PASTE MAKING SURE THAT
MY WORDS ARE PERFECTLY UNCHANGED.
 
void DDD()
{
    HHH(DDD);
    return;
}
 
The *input* to simulating termination analyzer HHH(DDD)
specifies recursive simulation that can never reach its
*simulated "return" instruction final halt state* because
this input specifies that HHH simulates itself simulating DDD.
 
*Every rebuttal to this changes the words*
 
Sounds perfect for me (but like others: you may have posted "1+2=3"
, or various tautology, as proof that your POOH is correct).
No, all such are irrelevant.
HP asks for "THE H" that decide the halting property of its argument.
 
 
The input to HHH(DDD) specifies non-halting behavior.
 
int main()
{
   DDD(); // calls HHH(DDD)
}
 
It is ridiculously stupid to require HHH(DDD)
to report on the behavior of the direct execution
of DDD() because this DDD() *IS ITS CALLER*
and not its input.

So, you are saying the Halting Problem is ridiculous?


Date Sujet#  Auteur
29 May 25 * Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem238olcott
30 May 25 +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
30 May 25 `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem236Mikko
30 May 25  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem235olcott
31 May 25   +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem175Richard Damon
31 May 25   i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem174olcott
31 May 25   i +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem168dbush
31 May 25   i i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem167olcott
31 May 25   i i +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem165dbush
31 May 25   i i i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem164olcott
31 May 25   i i i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem163dbush
31 May 25   i i i  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem162Mike Terry
1 Jun 25   i i i   `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem161olcott
1 Jun 25   i i i    +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem159Mike Terry
1 Jun 25   i i i    i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem158olcott
1 Jun 25   i i i    i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem157Mike Terry
1 Jun 25   i i i    i  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem156olcott
1 Jun 25   i i i    i   +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
1 Jun 25   i i i    i   +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1dbush
1 Jun 25   i i i    i   `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem153Mike Terry
1 Jun 25   i i i    i    +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem13olcott
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i+* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem3Richard Damon
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem2olcott
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem9Mike Terry
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem8olcott
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i  +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem3Fred. Zwarts
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i  i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem2olcott
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i  i `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem4Mike Terry
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i   `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem3olcott
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i    `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem2Mike Terry
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    i     `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1olcott
2 Jun 25   i i i    i    +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1olcott
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem137Mike Terry
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i+* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem5André G. Isaak
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem4olcott
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem3André G. Isaak
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem2olcott
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii   `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1André G. Isaak
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i+* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem5olcott
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii+- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Fred. Zwarts
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem3Richard Damon
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem2olcott
4 Jun 25   i i i    i    ii  `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem126dbush
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem117Mike Terry
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i i+* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem114wij
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem113olcott
4 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
4 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem111Mikko
4 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem110olcott
6 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii   `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem109Mikko
6 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii    `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem108olcott
7 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii     `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem107Mikko
7 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii      `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem106olcott
8 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii       +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
8 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii       `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem104Mikko
8 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii        `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem103olcott
8 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii         +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
10 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii         `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem101Mikko
10 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii          `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem100olcott
10 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii           +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii           `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem98Mikko
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii            `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem97olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem49wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem48olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem47wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem46olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i   `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem45wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i    `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem44olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i     `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem43wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i      `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem42olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i       `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem41wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i        `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem40olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem38wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem37olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem35wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem34olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem33wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem32olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i   `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem31wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i    `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem30olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i     `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem29wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i      +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i      `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem27olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i       `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem26wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i        `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem25olcott
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i         `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem24wij
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i          `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem23olcott
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem21wij
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem20olcott
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem19wij
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem18olcott
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i   +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem10wij
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i   i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem9olcott
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i   i +* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem3wij
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i   i i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem2olcott
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i   i i `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i   i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem5Fred. Zwarts
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i   i  `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem4olcott
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           i   `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem7joes
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i i           `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         i `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             i         `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
11 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             +- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
12 Jun 25   i i i    i    i ii             `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem46Mikko
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i i`* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem2olcott
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem8olcott
3 Jun 25   i i i    i    `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Mikko
1 Jun 25   i i i    `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
31 May 25   i i `- Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem1Richard Damon
31 May 25   i `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem5Richard Damon
1 Jun 25   `* Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem59Mikko

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