Re: Undecidability based on epistemological antinomies V2 --H(D,D)--

On 4/24/2024 7:49 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 4/24/24 8:17 PM, olcott wrote:

On 4/24/2024 6:01 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 4/24/24 11:33 AM, olcott wrote:

On 4/24/2024 3:35 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-04-23 14:31:00 +0000, olcott said:
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On 4/23/2024 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-04-22 17:37:55 +0000, olcott said:
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On 4/22/2024 10:27 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-04-22 14:10:54 +0000, olcott said:
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On 4/22/2024 4:35 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-04-21 14:44:37 +0000, olcott said:
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On 4/21/2024 2:57 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-04-20 15:20:05 +0000, olcott said:
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On 4/20/2024 2:54 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-04-19 18:04:48 +0000, olcott said:
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When we create a three-valued logic system that has these
three values: {True, False, Nonsense}
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-valued_logic

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Such three valued logic has the problem that a tautology of the
ordinary propositional logic cannot be trusted to be true. For
example, in ordinary logic A ∨ ¬A is always true. This means that
some ordinary proofs of ordinary theorems are no longer valid and
you need to accept the possibility that a theory that is complete
in ordinary logic is incomplete in your logic.
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I only used three-valued logic as a teaching device. Whenever an
expression of language has the value of {Nonsense} then it is
rejected and not allowed to be used in any logical operations. It
is basically invalid input.

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You cannot teach because you lack necessary skills. Therefore you
don't need any teaching device.
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That is too close to ad homimen.
If you think my reasoning is incorrect then point to the error
in my reasoning. Saying that in your opinion I am a bad teacher
is too close to ad hominem because it refers to your opinion of
me and utterly bypasses any of my reasoning.

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No, it isn't. You introduced youtself as a topic of discussion so
you are a legitimate topic of discussion.
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I didn't claim that there be any reasoning, incorrect or otherwise.
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If you claim I am a bad teacher you must point out what is wrong with
the lesson otherwise your claim that I am a bad teacher is essentially
an as hominem attack.

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You are not a teacher, bad or otherwise. That you lack skills that
happen to be necessary for teaching is obvious from you postings
here. A teacher needs to understand human psychology but you don't.
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You may be correct that I am a terrible teacher.
None-the-less Mathematicians might not have very much understanding
of the link between proof theory and computability.

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Sume mathematicians do have very much understanding of that. But that
link is not needed for understanding and solving problems separately
in the two areas.
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When I refer to rejecting an invalid input math would seem to construe
this as nonsense, where as computability theory would totally understand.

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People working on computability theory do not understand "invalid input"
as "impossible input".

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The proof then shows, for any program f that might determine whether
programs halt, that a "pathological" program g, called with some input,
can pass its own source and its input to f and then specifically do the
opposite of what f predicts g will do. No f can exist that handles this
case, thus showing undecidability.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem#
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So then they must believe that there exists an H that does correctly
determine the halt status of every input, some inputs are simply
more difficult than others, no inputs are impossible.

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That "must" is false as it does not follow from anything.
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Sure it does. If there are no "impossible" inputs that entails
that all inputs are possible. When all inputs are possible then
the halting problem proof is wrong.
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*Termination Analyzer H is Not Fooled by Pathological Input D*
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369971402_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
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Everyone that objects to the statement that H(D,D) correctly determines the halt status of its inputs say that believe that H(D,D) must report on the behavior of the D(D) that invokes H(D,D).

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Right, because that IS the definition of a Halt Decider.
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Everyone here takes the definition of a halt decider to be
required to determine the halt status of the program that
invokes this halt decider, knowing full well that the program
that invokes this halt decider IS NOT ITS INPUT.

 And what you don't seem to understand is that it *IS*.
 The DEFINITION of a Halt Decider is to decide on the program described by it input.
 What else could that mean but the program described by the input?
 

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All these same people also know the computable functions only
operate on their inputs and are not allowed to consider anything
else.

 First, we don't know that a Halt Decider is a "Computable Function" and in fact, that is the question, is the Halting Function computable?
 Second, the input IS a "Description of the program" to be decided on, so that IS the input.
 You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "description"
 

Everyone else is wrong about this when they allow a description
to include the program that invokes the halt decider.
These same people already know that the program that invokes
the decider is definitely not its input.
These same people also know that computable functions only
operate on their inputs.
So they are simply contradicting their own views by not paying attention.

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Computable functions are the formalized analogue of the intuitive notion
of algorithms, in the sense that a function is computable if there
exists an algorithm that can do the job of the function, i.e. given an
input of the function domain it can return the corresponding output.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_function

 Right, so *IF* you can create the algorithm that can compute the mapping defined by the Halting Function, for EVERY input, then you can show it to be computable.
 

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When the definition of a halt decider contradicts the definition of
a computable function they can't both be right.
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 But sincd the question is if the Halting Function is, in fact, computable, the fact that you can't create a function that meets the definition is just a proof that the answer to the question is NO, the Halting Function is not computable.
 

To say otherwise just proves you don't actually know the meanings of the words you are using.
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They say this knowing full well that computable functions only operate on their inputs. This also violates the definition of a decider that only computes the mapping from its inputs. Thus expecting H(D,D) to report on the behavior of the D(D) that invokes H(D,D) violates two core principles of of computer science.

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Nope, and the fact you think so shows you don't understand those core principles.

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*Termination Analyzer H is Not Fooled by Pathological Input D*
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https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369971402_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
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 Which just proves you don't understand what you are talking about, and like to post LIES. Your many errors have been pointed out in the past, but since it is clear you don't understnd, or accdept, the defined definitions, you are just incapbable of understanding the errors.
 The biggest part of the problem seems to be your REFUSAL to even attempt to learn the basic language of the field, but work off your "First Principles" analysis that is actually not based on the "First Principles" of the field, so are really just Zeroth Principles that are just total misconceptions.
 

--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer