Re: Is Richard a Liar?

On 5/15/2024 9:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:

Op 15.mei.2024 om 16:02 schreef olcott:

On 5/15/2024 1:21 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:

Op 14.mei.2024 om 22:13 schreef olcott:

On 5/14/2024 3:05 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:

Op 14.mei.2024 om 21:42 schreef olcott:

On 5/14/2024 2:36 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:

Op 14.mei.2024 om 20:40 schreef olcott:

On 5/14/2024 1:30 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:

Op 14.mei.2024 om 19:52 schreef olcott:

On 5/14/2024 12:49 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:

Op 14.mei.2024 om 19:14 schreef olcott:

On 5/14/2024 11:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:

Op 14.mei.2024 om 17:45 schreef olcott:

On 5/14/2024 10:42 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:

Op 14.mei.2024 om 17:30 schreef olcott:

On 5/14/2024 10:08 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:

[ Followup-To: set ]
>
In comp.theory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:

On 5/14/2024 4:44 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-05-12 15:58:02 +0000, olcott said:

>

On 5/12/2024 10:21 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-05-12 11:34:17 +0000, Richard Damon said:

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On 5/12/24 5:19 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-05-11 16:26:30 +0000, olcott said:

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I am working on providing an academic quality definition of this
term.

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The definition in Wikipedia is good enough.

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I think he means, he is working on a definition that redefines the
field to allow him to claim what he wants.

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Here one can claim whatever one wants anysay.
In if one wants to present ones claims on some significant forum then
it is better to stick to usual definitions as much as possible.

>

Sort of like his new definition of H as an "unconventional" machine
that some how both returns an answer but also keeps on running.

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There are systems where that is possible but unsolvable problems are
unsolvable even in those systems.

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>

When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn

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This notation does not work with machines that can, or have parts
that can, return a value without (or before) termination.

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>
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00 int H(ptr x, ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
01 int D(ptr x)
02 {
03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
04   if (Halt_Status)
05     HERE: goto HERE;
06   return Halt_Status;
07 }
08
09 int main()
10 {
11   H(D,D);
12 }

>

In any case you diverged away form the whole point of this thread.
Richard is wrong when he says that there exists an H/D pair such
that D simulated by H ever reaches past its own line 03.

>
Yes, in the same way that you are wrong.  The above "C code" is garbage;
as already pointed out, it doesn't even compile.  So any talk of
"reaching line 3" or "matching" that "code" is vacuous nonsense.
>

>
Any H/D pair matching the above template where D(D) is simulated
by the same H(D,D) that it calls cannot possibly reach past its own
line 03. Simple software engineering verified fact.

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Since nobody knows who has verified this fact en there have been counter examples,

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*See if you can show that your claim of counter-examples is not a lie*
*See if you can show that your claim of counter-examples is not a lie*
*See if you can show that your claim of counter-examples is not a lie*
>

>

>
*YOU SKIPPED THE CHALLENGE TO YOUR ASSERTION*
IS THAT BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT IS FALSE?
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*YOU SKIPPED THE CHALLENGE TO YOUR ASSERTION*
IS THAT BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT IS FALSE?
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*YOU SKIPPED THE CHALLENGE TO YOUR ASSERTION*
IS THAT BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT IS FALSE?
>

Olcott is trying to stay at this point for several weeks now, but he does not succeed. The reason probably is, that it is already a few steps too far. First there must be agreement about the words and terms used in what he says. So, we should delay this subject and go back a few steps.
Before we can talk about this, first there must be 100% agreement about:
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1) What is a "verified fact"? Who needs to do the verification before it can be said that it is a verified fact?

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I am ONLY referring to expressions that are PROVEN
to be {true entirely on the basis of their meaning}.
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*CONCRETE EXAMPLES*
How do we know that 2 + 3 = 5?

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If needed we can write out the proof for this, starting from the axioms for natural numbers. That proof is well known.
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But nobody here knows the proof for your assertion above, that it is a verified fact that it cannot reach past line 03. So, we would like to see that proof. Just the claim that it has been proven is not enough.
>

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The "nobody here" you are referring to must be clueless
about the semantics of the C programming language.
>

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Are you honest? Please, give the proof, instead of keeping away from it.

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I have been an expert C/C++ programmer for decades.
If you knew C will enough yourself you would comprehend
that my claim about:
>
Any H/D pair matching the above template where
D(D) is simulated by the same H(D,D) that it calls
cannot possibly reach past its own line 03.
This is a simple software engineering verified fact.
>
My grandfather was a diagnostician and pathologist
said: "You can't argue with ignorance".

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Again no trace of a proof. Only your authority and personal attacks about lack of knowledge and ignorance. So, the text below still stands:
>

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*The only sufficient proof is being an expert in C yourself*

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Again no trace of a proof. Do you understand what a proof is?
The proof of 2+3=5 is not 'Being a mathematician'.
You give the impression that you are clueless about how to prove it.
>

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The proof of 2 + 3 = 5 is through comprehending arithmetic.

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No, it follows with very simple reasoning from the axiomatic properties of natural numbers.
>

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If you understand them then the proof is easy if you
do not understand them then the proof is impossible.
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It cannot be proved to anyone failing to comprehend arithmetic.
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Likewise my proof is through comprehending the semantics of C.
It cannot be proved to anyone failing to comprehend the semantics of C.

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Since we understand C, that is not an excuse. It seems that you are looking for excuses to hide the fact that you have never seen such proof.
>

>
00 int H(ptr x, ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
01 int D(ptr x)
02 {
03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
04   if (Halt_Status)
05     HERE: goto HERE;
06   return Halt_Status;
07 }
08
09 int main()
10 {
11   H(D,D);
12 }
>
Any H/D pair matching the above template where
D(D) is simulated by the same H(D,D) that it calls
cannot possibly reach past its own line 03.
>
If you understand C and understand proofs then you
understand that a single counter-example would refute
my claim if one exists. You would also understand that
that when no such counter-example exists that would
prove that I am correct.
>
So I ask you to do one of three things:
(a) Admit that I am correct
(b) Provide a single counter example
(c) Admit that you simply don't understand this.
>
*Any other response will be construed as intentional deception*
Intentional deception certainly meets the requirement of
reckless disregard for the truth of defamation lawsuits.
>
https://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/reckless-disregard-of-the-truth.html
>

 Again no proof. Now with the excuse that olcott does not know a counter example. It your claim, so you have the burden of a proof. Not knowing a counter example is not a proof. It seems you are using such excuses to hide the fact that you don't know how to prove it. Again, if there is a proof, show it. Otherwise stop saying that it is a verified fact, because it becomes more and more clear that nobody verified it.

*When we stay on the actual topic of this post then*
*the following must be directly addressed and not ignored*
Message-ID: <v0ummt$2qov3$2@i2pn2.org>
On 5/1/2024 7:28 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
 > On 5/1/24 11:51 AM, olcott wrote:
*When Richard interprets*
*Every D simulated by H that cannot possibly*
*stop running unless aborted by H*
as *D NEVER simulated by H*
Richard is saying
for all "D simulated by H" there exists at least
one element of "D NEVER simulated by H"
Can this be an honest mistake?
--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer