Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method

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Sujet : Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method
De : richard (at) *nospam* damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Groupes : sci.logic comp.theory
Date : 17. May 2024, 04:29:26
Autres entêtes
Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <v26fe6$18ad7$3@i2pn2.org>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 5/16/24 9:59 AM, olcott wrote:
On 5/16/2024 6:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/16/24 12:44 AM, olcott wrote:
On 5/15/2024 9:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/15/24 10:17 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/15/2024 9:07 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/15/24 9:57 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/13/2024 9:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/13/24 10:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>
Remember, p defined as ~True(L, p) is BY DEFINITION a truth bearer, as True must return a Truth Value for all inputs, and ~ a truth valus is always the other truth value.
>
>
Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied to expressions
that are stipulated to be true derive p?
>
On 5/15/2024 8:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
 > Which has NOTHING to do with the problem with True(L, p)
 > being true when p is defined in L as ~True(L, p)
>
*YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT True(L, p) IS FALSE*
>
No, I said that because there is not path to p, it would need to be false, but that was based on the assumption that it could exist.
>
>
No, so True(L, p) is false
and thus ~True(L, p) is true.
>
>
Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied to expressions
that are stipulated to be true derive ~p?
>
>
On 5/15/2024 7:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
 > Which has NOTHING to do with the above,
 > as we never refered to False(L,p).
>
*YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT false(L, p) IS FALSE*
>
Right, but that has nothing to do with the problem with True(L, p) being false, because, since p in L is ~True(L, p) so that make True(L, ~false) which is True(L, true) false, which is incorrrect.
>
>
No, so False(L, p) is false,
>
>
Please try and keep these two thoughts together at the same time
*I need to make another point that depends on both of them*
>
*YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT True(L, p) IS FALSE*
*YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT false(L, p) IS FALSE*
>
>
>
right, by your definitions, True(L, p) is False, but that means that True(L, true) is false, so your system is broken.
>
>
You understand that True(English, "a fish") is false
and you understand that False(English, "a fish") is false
and you understand this means that "a fish" is neither True
nor false in English.
>
You understand that the actual Liar Paradox is neither true
nor false *THIS IS MUCH MUCH BETTER THAN MOST PEOPLE: Good Job*
>
  True(English, "This sentence is not true") is false
False(English, "This sentence is not true") is false
Is saying the same thing that you already know.
>
You get stuck when we formalize: "This sentence is not true"
as "p defined as ~True(L, p)", yet the formalized sentence has
the exact same semantics as the English one.
>
>
No, YOU get stuck when you can't figure out how to make True(L, p) with p defined in L as ~True(L, p) work. If it IS false, then the resulting comclusion is that True(L, true) is false, whicn means your system is broken.
>
>
  True(L, true) is false
False(L, true) is false
>
This is the Truth Teller Paradox
and is rejected as not a truth bearer.
>
>
>
No True(L, true) must be TRUE by definiition.
 We could say that "kittens are fifteen story office buildings"
is true by definition and we would be wrong.
But the fundamental definition of true makes it true.

 "True(L, true)" lacks a truth object that it is true about.
A sentence cannot correctly be true about being true...
It has to be true about something other than itself.
true IS the fundamental truth object.
It isn't a "sentence" it is a truth value.
You are just showing you don't actually understand how logic works.

 "This sentence has five words."
Is true about the number of words that it has.
True(English, "This sentence has five words.") is true
 "a sentence may fail to make a statement if it is
paradoxical or ungrounded."
So, you thing truth is just paradoxical or ungrounded?
I guess that throws a wrench in your idea of a universal system to determine what is true. If true might not be true, what can we say about anything.

 *Outline of a Theory of Truth --- Saul Kripke*
https://www.impan.pl/~kz/truthseminar/Kripke_Outline.pdf
 *The grounding of a truth-bearer to its truthmaker*
True(L,x) returns true when x is derived from a set of truth preserving
operations from finite string expressions of language that have been
stipulated to have the semantic value of Boolean true. False(L,x) is
defined as True(L,~x). Copyright 2022,2023,2024 PL Olcott
 
The value of the value true IS true.
>
true is the logic value of statement tmentrs.
>
"This statment is true" is the truth teller paradox, not the logic value true.
>
"This sentence is true"
is correctly formalized as TT is defined as True(TT)
 "This sentence is true"
What is it true about?
It is true about being true.
What is it true about being true about?
It true about being true about being true...
 
This goes back to the ambiguity of trying to discuss logic with words.
 

Date Sujet#  Auteur
11 May 24 * True on the basis of meaning156olcott
11 May 24 `* Re: True on the basis of meaning155Richard Damon
11 May 24  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning154olcott
11 May 24   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning153Richard Damon
11 May 24    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning152olcott
11 May 24     +- Re: True on the basis of meaning1Richard Damon
12 May 24     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning150olcott
12 May 24      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning149olcott
12 May 24       +* Re: True on the basis of meaning139Richard Damon
12 May 24       i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning138olcott
12 May 24       i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning137Richard Damon
12 May 24       i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning136olcott
12 May 24       i   +* Re: True on the basis of meaning127Richard Damon
12 May 24       i   i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning126olcott
13 May 24       i   i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning125Richard Damon
13 May 24       i   i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning124olcott
13 May 24       i   i   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning123Richard Damon
13 May 24       i   i    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning122olcott
13 May 24       i   i     +* Re: True on the basis of meaning2olcott
13 May 24       i   i     i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning1Richard Damon
13 May 24       i   i     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning119Richard Damon
13 May 24       i   i      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning118olcott
13 May 24       i   i       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning117Richard Damon
13 May 24       i   i        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning116olcott
13 May 24       i   i         `* Re: True on the basis of meaning115Richard Damon
13 May 24       i   i          `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !114olcott
14 May 24       i   i           `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !113Richard Damon
14 May 24       i   i            +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !2olcott
14 May 24       i   i            i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !1Richard Damon
14 May 24       i   i            `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method110olcott
14 May 24       i   i             `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method109Richard Damon
14 May 24       i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
14 May 24       i   i              i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
14 May 24       i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method5olcott
14 May 24       i   i              i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method4Richard Damon
14 May 24       i   i              i +- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1wij
14 May 24       i   i              i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
15 May 24       i   i              i  `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
15 May 24       i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
15 May 24       i   i              i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
15 May 24       i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method4olcott
15 May 24       i   i              i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method3Richard Damon
15 May 24       i   i              i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
16 May 24       i   i              i  `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
16 May 24       i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method4olcott
16 May 24       i   i              i+- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
16 May 24       i   i              i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2immibis
16 May 24       i   i              i `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1olcott
16 May 24       i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
16 May 24       i   i              i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
16 May 24       i   i              `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method89olcott
16 May 24       i   i               `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method88Richard Damon
16 May 24       i   i                `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method87olcott
16 May 24       i   i                 `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method86Richard Damon
16 May 24       i   i                  +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
16 May 24       i   i                  i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
16 May 24       i   i                  +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method5olcott
16 May 24       i   i                  i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method4Richard Damon
16 May 24       i   i                  i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method3olcott
17 May 24       i   i                  i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2Richard Damon
17 May 24       i   i                  i   `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1olcott
16 May 24       i   i                  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method78olcott
16 May 24       i   i                   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method77Richard Damon
16 May 24       i   i                    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method76olcott
17 May 24       i   i                     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method75Richard Damon
17 May 24       i   i                      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method74olcott
17 May 24       i   i                       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method73Richard Damon
17 May 24       i   i                        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method72olcott
17 May 24       i   i                         `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method71Richard Damon
17 May 24       i   i                          +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method68olcott
17 May 24       i   i                          i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method67Richard Damon
17 May 24       i   i                          i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method66olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method65Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method64olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method63Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method62olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method61Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method60olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method59Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i         `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method58olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i          `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method57Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i           `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method56olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i            `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method55Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i             `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method54olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i              `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method53Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i               +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i               i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i               `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method50olcott
18 May 24       i   i                          i                `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method49Richard Damon
18 May 24       i   i                          i                 `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method48olcott
19 May 24       i   i                          i                  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method47Richard Damon
19 May 24       i   i                          i                   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method46olcott
19 May 24       i   i                          i                    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method45Richard Damon
19 May 24       i   i                          i                     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method44olcott
19 May 24       i   i                          i                      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method43Richard Damon
19 May 24       i   i                          i                       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method42olcott
19 May 24       i   i                          i                        +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method15Richard Damon
19 May 24       i   i                          i                        i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method14olcott
20 May 24       i   i                          i                        i +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method12Richard Damon
20 May 24       i   i                          i                        i i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method11olcott
21 May 24       i   i                          i                        i i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method10Richard Damon
20 May 24       i   i                          i                        i `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1immibis
20 May 24       i   i                          i                        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method26olcott
17 May 24       i   i                          `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
13 May 24       i   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning8olcott
13 May 24       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning9Mikko

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