Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT

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Sujet : Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT
De : polcott333 (at) *nospam* gmail.com (olcott)
Groupes : sci.logic comp.theory
Date : 29. May 2024, 04:54:07
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <v368su$100kd$4@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 5/28/2024 10:38 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/28/24 10:39 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/28/2024 9:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/28/24 10:59 AM, olcott wrote:
On 5/28/2024 1:59 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-05-27 14:34:14 +0000, olcott said:
>
?- LP = not(true(LP)).
LP = not(true(LP)).
>
?- unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))).
false.
>
In other words Prolog has detected a cycle in the directed graph of the
evaluation sequence of the structure of the Liar Paradox. Experts seem
to think that Prolog is taking "not" and "true" as meaningless and is
only evaluating the structure of the expression.
>
The words "not" and "true" of Prolog are meaningful in some contexts
but not above. The word "true" is meaningful only when it has no arguments.
>
>
That Prolog construes any expression having the same structure as the
Liar Paradox as having a cycle in the directed graph of its evaluation
sequence already completely proves my point. In other words Prolog
is saying that there is something wrong with the expression and it must
be rejected.
>
But Prolog doesn't support powerful enough logic to handle the system like Tarski and Godel are talking about.
>
The fact that Prolog just rejects it shows that.
>
>
Your ignorance is no excuse.
 What ignorance?
 
The fact that you assert that you know the underlying details of
https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?predicate=unify_with_occurs_check/2
without even glancing at the documentation and write-up in Clocksin and
Mellish seems to be willful ignorance.

The fact that I understand the limitation of Prolog and what forms of logic it can do, which seems to be beyond your understanding?
 Claiming that Prolog rejects a statement because it doesn't fit its grammer is meaningless for more complicated logics that don't have that same grammer restricition.
 IF you want to limit the logic you use to what Prolog can handle, go ahead, the rest of the world likes its mathematics.
 
>
>
You could try
?- LP = not(true(LP), true(LP).
>
or
?- LP = not(true(LP), not(true(LP)).
>
The predicate unify_with_occurs_check checks whether the resulting
sructure is acyclic because that is its purpose. Whether a simple
>
Yes exactly. If I knew that Prolog did this then I would not have
created Minimal Type Theory that does this same thing. That I did
create MTT that does do this same thing makes my understanding much
deeper.
>
unification like LP = not(true(LP)) does same is implementation
dependent as Prolog rules permit but do not require that. In a
typical implementation a simple unification does not check for
cycles.
>
>
ISO Prolog implementations have the built-in predicate
unify_with_occurs_check/2 for sound unification
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occurs_check#Sound_unification
>
Alternatively such expressions crash or remain stuck in infinite loops.
>
>
Anyway, none of this is relevant to the topic of this thread or
topics of sci.logic.
>
>
    ...14 Every epistemological antinomy can likewise be used for
    a similar undecidability proof...(Gödel 1931:40)
>
Gödel, Kurt 1931.
On Formally Undecidable Propositions of Principia Mathematica And Related Systems
>
https://monoskop.org/images/9/93/Kurt_G%C3%B6del_On_Formally_Undecidable_Propositions_of_Principia_Mathematica_and_Related_Systems_1992.pdf
>
    It would
    then be possible to reconstruct the *antinomy of the liar* in the
    metalanguage, by forming in the language itself a sentence x
    such that the sentence of the metalanguage which is correlated
    with x asserts that x is not a true sentence.
>
CONCEPT OF TRUTH IN FORMALIZED LANGUAGES, Tarski
https://liarparadox.org/Tarski_247_248.pdf
>
The Liar Paradox and other such {epistemological antinomies} must be
rejected as type mismatch errors for any system of bivalent logic thus
cannot be correctly used for any undecidability or undefinability proof.
>
>
But you just don't don't understand what was done in those proofs.
>
Neither of them assumed the Liar's paradox had a truth value. Only statements formed from VALID logical sequences in the field.
>
Please try to show what step in Godel's or Tarski's proof where they made a logical error (not just came up with a statement you think can't be valid).
>
>
Tarski's Liar Paradox from page 248
    It would then be possible to reconstruct the antinomy of the liar
    in the metalanguage, by forming in the language itself a sentence
    x such that the sentence of the metalanguage which is correlated
    with x asserts that x is not a true sentence.
    https://liarparadox.org/Tarski_247_248.pdf
 Right, He has SHOWN that the logic system, when given the assumption of the existance of the Truth Predicate, can construct the liar as a truth-bearing statement.
 
Utterly Ridiculous (and you probably don't know it).
--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Date Sujet#  Auteur
18 May 24 * Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method65Richard Damon
18 May 24 `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method64olcott
18 May 24  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method63Richard Damon
18 May 24   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method62olcott
18 May 24    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method61Richard Damon
18 May 24     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method60olcott
18 May 24      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method59Richard Damon
18 May 24       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method58olcott
18 May 24        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method57Richard Damon
18 May 24         `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method56olcott
18 May 24          `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method55Richard Damon
18 May 24           `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method54olcott
18 May 24            `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method53Richard Damon
18 May 24             +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
18 May 24             i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
18 May 24             `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method50olcott
18 May 24              `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method49Richard Damon
18 May 24               `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method48olcott
19 May 24                `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method47Richard Damon
19 May 24                 `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method46olcott
19 May 24                  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method45Richard Damon
19 May 24                   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method44olcott
19 May 24                    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method43Richard Damon
19 May 24                     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method42olcott
19 May 24                      +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method15Richard Damon
19 May 24                      i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method14olcott
20 May 24                      i +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method12Richard Damon
20 May 24                      i i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method11olcott
21 May 24                      i i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method10Richard Damon
21 May 24                      i i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method9olcott
21 May 24                      i i   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method8Richard Damon
21 May 24                      i i    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method7olcott
21 May 24                      i i     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method6Richard Damon
21 May 24                      i i      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method5olcott
21 May 24                      i i       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method4Richard Damon
21 May 24                      i i        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method3olcott
21 May 24                      i i         +- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1immibis
22 May 24                      i i         `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
20 May 24                      i `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1immibis
20 May 24                      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method26olcott
22 May 24                       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)25olcott
23 May 24                        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)24Richard Damon
23 May 24                         `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)23olcott
23 May 24                          +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)21Richard Damon
23 May 24                          i+* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)6olcott
23 May 24                          ii`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)5Richard Damon
23 May 24                          ii `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)4olcott
23 May 24                          ii  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)3Richard Damon
23 May 24                          ii   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)2olcott
24 May 24                          ii    `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)1Richard Damon
25 May 24                          i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)14olcott
27 May 24                          i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)13olcott
27 May 24                          i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT12olcott
28 May 24                          i   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT11olcott
29 May 24                          i    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT10Richard Damon
29 May 24                          i     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT9olcott
29 May 24                          i      +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT5Richard Damon
29 May 24                          i      i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT4olcott
29 May 24                          i      i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT3Richard Damon
29 May 24                          i      i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT2olcott
30 May 24                          i      i   `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT1Richard Damon
29 May 24                          i      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT3Python
29 May 24                          i       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT2olcott
30 May 24                          i        `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT1Richard Damon
23 May 24                          `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)1olcott

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