Newsportal USENET - Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method

On 5/19/2024 6:55 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/18/24 11:47 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 6:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 6:47 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 5:22 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 4:00 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 2:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 3:46 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 12:38 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 1:26 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 11:56 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 12:48 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 9:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/18/24 10:15 AM, olcott wrote:
On 5/18/2024 7:43 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
No, your system contradicts itself.
>
>
You have never shown this.
The most you have shown is a lack of understanding of the
Truth Teller Paradox.
>
No, I have, but you don't understand the proof, it seems because you don't know what a "Truth Predicate" has been defined to be.
>
>
My True(L,x) predicate is defined to return true or false for every
finite string x on the basis of the existence of a sequence of truth
preserving operations that derive x from
>
And thus, When True(L, p) established a sequence of truth preserving operations eminationg from ~True(L, p) by returning false, it contradicts itself. The problem is that True, in making an answer of false, has asserted that such a sequence exists.
>
On 5/13/2024 9:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 5/13/24 10:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/13/2024 7:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>
>>> Remember, p defined as ~True(L, p) ...
>>
>> Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied
>> to expressions that are stipulated to be true derive p?
> No, so True(L, p) is false
>>
>> Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied
>> to expressions that are stipulated to be true derive ~p?
>
> No, so False(L, p) is false,
>
>
*To help you concentrate I repeated this*
The Liar Paradox and your formalized Liar Paradox both
contradict themselves that is why they must be screened
out as type mismatch error non-truth-bearers *BEFORE THAT OCCURS*
>
And the Truth Predicate isn't allowed to "filter" out expressions.
>
>
YOU ALREADY KNOW THAT IT DOESN'T
WE HAVE BEEN OVER THIS AGAIN AND AGAIN
THE FORMAL SYSTEM USES THE TRUE AND FALSE PREDICATE
TO FILTER OUT TYPE MISMATCH ERROR
>
The first thing that the formal system does with any
arbitrary finite string input is see if it is a Truth-bearer:
Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
>
No, we can ask True(L, x) for any expression x and get an answer.
>
>
The system is designed so you can ask this, yet non-truth-bearers
are rejected before True(L, x) is allowed to be called.
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>
>
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Not allowed.
>
>
My True(L,x) predicate is defined to return true or false for every
finite string x on the basis of the existence of a sequence of truth
preserving operations that derive x from
>
A set of finite string semantic meanings that form an accurate
verbal model of the general knowledge of the actual world that
form a finite set of finite strings that are stipulated to have
the semantic value of Boolean true.
>
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
*This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
>
>
>
So, for a statement x to be false, it says that there must be a sequence of truth perserving operations that derive ~x from, right?
>
Yes we must build from mutual agreement, good.
>
So do you still say that for p defined in L as ~True(L, p) that your definition will say that True(L, p) will return false?
>
>
It is the perfectly isomorphic to this:
True(English, "This sentence is not true")
>
Nope, Because "This sentece is not true" can be a non-truth-bearer, but by its definition, True(L, x) can not.

True(L,x) is always a truth bearer.
when x is defined as True(L,x) then x is not a truth bearer.
~True(L,x) is always a truth bearer.
when x is defined as ~True(L,x) then x is not a truth bearer.
Compared to most of the rest of the world including leading
experts in this field you are doing quite well with this.
One of the top experts in the field of truthmaker maximalism
is not even sure that "This sentence is not true" is not
a truth bearer. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truthmakers/#Max
This means that you are ahead of the leading experts in the field.

Maybe your problem is you just forgot to learn the meaning of the key words in the things you want to talk about.

That means that the predicate establishes that there IS a seriers of truth perservion operations that derive the expreson ~True(L, p).
>
>
You keep confusing:
This sentence is not true.
with
This sentence is not true: "This sentence is not true".
I have spent 20,000 hours on this YOU WILL NOT FIND ANY ACTUAL MISTAKE.
I have been using NEITHER of those sentences, only YOU have in your confusion.

You have been saying things with isomorphic structure.
LP := ~True(L,LP)
True(L,LP) is false
True(L,~LP) is false
~True(True(L,LP)) is true
*This last one does not make LP true*
*This last one has one level of indirect reference*

If your problem is that you can not think of Formal statements as Formal statement, but need to translate them into sloppy English, that is YOUR problem, and means you need to just admit you don't know what you are talking about.

>
And if so, doesnt that mean that the truth value of p will be true, since p is defined as the logical negation of True(L, p), which we just establish HAS a sequence of truth perservion operations as indicated by the truth predicate.
>
In Prolog both the Liar Paradox and the Truth Teller Paradox
get stuck in an infinite loop (technically a cycle in the directed
graph of their evaluation sequence).
I don't CARE are PROLOG, as it doesn't actually define what we are talking about.
P

>
https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?predicate=unify_with_occurs_check/2
Catches this cycle and reject it.
So, that just means that Prolog (or you) can not handle the logic system, as one of the requirements for the proof was that the logic was capable of expressing sentences with references to sentences, even its self.

*Maybe you do not understand that a cycle in a directed graph is*
If you do not understand this then you can't understand that
when an expression has a cycle in the directed graph of its
evaluation sequence that this expression cannot be evaluated.
It is the same basic idea as an unconditional infinite loop
in a program. The evaluation and the program cannot terminate.

>
This sentence is not true.
What is it not true about?
It is not true about being not true.
What is it not true about being not true about?
It is not true about being not true about being not true...
RED HERRING

Not at all. I have expressly shown the cycle in the directed
graph of the evaluation sequence of "This sentence is not true".

Proving you have run out of thoughts that actually relate to the problem.

>
and if so, doesn't that mean that your True(L, x) just returned the false value for an input that was, by your definitions, true?
>
How does that work?
>
>
It must work the same as Prolog and detect cycles
in its evaluation graph.
Nope. As shown above, Prolog can't handle this logic system.
Yes, perhaps in a logic system fully handlable by Prolog, you can probably define a truth primitive. Since most real work in formal logic isn't in such systems, that is uninteresting.

*This knowledge ontology*
A set of finite string semantic meanings that form an accurate
model of the general knowledge of the actual world.
is an inheritance hierarchy of formalized natural language along
with formal language that is similar to type theory in the is has
an unlimited number or orders of logic.

>
Deflect again and I will just point out that you have refused to answer because you are just admitting you can't figure out how to fix your broken system.
As I predicted, you are just proving you don't even understand the system that is being talk about, It is just like you claim that you can't show that 2 + 3 = 5 to a person that doesn't understan Numbers.
You can't show the problem of a truth predicate to someone that doesn't understand how logic really works.

You are incorrect on this point yet doing better than the leading
experts in the field simply because you fully understand that
"This sentence is not true." is definitely not a truth bearer.

>
After all, you have proven that just because you thinkl something is self-evedently true, doesn't mean that it is true, as you sense of self-evedent is just broken.
>

--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Date	Sujet	#	Auteur
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	65	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	64	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	63	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	62	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	61	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	60	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	59	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	58	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	57	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	56	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	55	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	54	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	53	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	50	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	49	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	48	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	47	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	46	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	45	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	44	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	43	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	42	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	15	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	14	olcott
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	12	Richard Damon
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	11	olcott
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	10	Richard Damon
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	9	olcott
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	8	Richard Damon
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	7	olcott
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	6	Richard Damon
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	5	olcott
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	Richard Damon
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	olcott
21 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	immibis
22 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	immibis
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	26	olcott
22 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	25	olcott
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	24	Richard Damon
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	23	olcott
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	21	Richard Damon
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	6	olcott
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	5	Richard Damon
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	4	olcott
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	3	Richard Damon
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	2	olcott
24 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	1	Richard Damon
25 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	14	olcott
27 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	13	olcott
27 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	12	olcott
28 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	11	olcott
29 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	10	Richard Damon
29 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	9	olcott
29 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	5	Richard Damon
29 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	4	olcott
29 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	3	Richard Damon
29 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	2	olcott
30 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	1	Richard Damon
29 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	3	Python
29 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	2	olcott
30 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method MTT	1	Richard Damon
23 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method (agreement)	1	olcott