Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down

On 6/1/2024 6:22 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/31/24 10:40 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/31/2024 9:25 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/31/24 10:08 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/31/2024 8:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/31/24 9:10 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/31/2024 7:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/31/24 7:57 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/31/2024 6:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/31/24 6:54 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/31/2024 5:46 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/31/24 6:08 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/31/2024 4:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/31/24 10:10 AM, olcott wrote:

On 5/31/2024 6:16 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/30/24 11:27 PM, olcott wrote:

Try and show how HH using an x86 emulator can correctly emulate
the following x86 machine code such that DD reaches its own
machine address 00001c47.

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Why should I, since that isn't what I was saying.
>

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*To me that looks like you know that*
*you have been busted in a lie and are backing down*

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no, YOU are LYING RIGHT HERE AND NOW.
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Prove that I said that the simulation by HH made it there, or admit to being a DAMNED LIAR.
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What I have been saying is the the DIRECT EXDCUTION of DD, and the CORRECT (and complete) simulation of the input to HH by an actual UTM will get there.
>

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That has always been the dishonest dodge strawman deception
CHANGE-THE-SUBJECT fake rebuttal regarding
the behavior of DD correctly simulated by pure function HH.

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But it is your talking about the "correctly simulated by HH" that is the dishonest dodge,

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Try and show how HH using an x86 emulator can correctly emulate
the following x86 machine code such that DD reaches its own
machine address 00001c47.

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Never said it could. But haven't looked hard enough to be willing to say it can't, but then, who cares, it doesn't say a thing about the real halting problem, since H's simulation isn't "correct" by a definition that relates simulation to non-halting behavior,
>

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"...the Turing machine will halt whenever it enters a final state."
Linz(1990:234)

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Right, and that is talking about runnig the Turing Machine, not simulating a representation of it.
>

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DD correctly simulated by HH cannot possibly reach its own simulated
final state. This is conclusively proven beyond all possible doubt
by the x86 machine code of DD.

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Depends on the specification of HH, as has beeen shown.
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You can lie about this and try to get away with changing the subject.
What you cannot do is show that it is not true.

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But I don't try to claim one side of the other, as it isn't relevent.
>

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*Showing that it is relevant is a whole other different subject that*
*we can get to as soon as you quit your deception on this subject*

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But if it isn't relevent, why are we looking at it.
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It seems you just WANT to waste you time trying to convince people about something they don't care about.
>

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*Showing that it is relevant is a whole other different subject that*
*we can get to as soon as you quit your deception on this subject*
>
*Showing that it is relevant is a whole other different subject that*
*we can get to as soon as you quit your deception on this subject*
>

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*If DD correctly simulated by HH can't possibly reach its own*
*final state then DD correctly simulated by HH is non-halting*

Nope, Where did that definition say ANYTHING about one machine simulationg another.
>

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Trying to get away with saying that you don't "believe in" UTMs
can't possibly fool anyone that knows what UTMs are.
>

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But I DO beleive in UTMs, and know exact what they do.
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Your embedded_H can NOT actually be a UTM, or neither H nor embedded_H are deciders.
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PERIOD,.
>

When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>
When embedded_H <is> a UTM then ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ correctly simulated by embedded_H
cannot possibly reach its own simulated final state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩. In this
case embedded_H fails to be a decider, however it also proves:

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And then, while THAT H^ is non-halting, H isn't a decider.
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>
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that ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ correctly simulated by embedded_H cannot possibly reach its
own simulated final state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩ for any embedded_H based on a UTM
that only simulates some finite sequence of steps.

>
But that only apply *if* embedded_H (and thus H) *IS* a UTM, if it aborts its simuliation, then its
>

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"...the Turing machine will halt whenever it enters a final state."
Linz(1990:234)
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⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ correctly simulated by embedded_H cannot possibly reach its
own simulated final state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩

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And and embedded_H that actually correct simulates the input, by Computaiton Theory definitions is the UTM that, by definition, doesn't abort its simulation.
>

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*The input ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to embedded_H SPECIFIES non-halting behavior*
*The input ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to embedded_H SPECIFIES non-halting behavior*
*The input ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to embedded_H SPECIFIES non-halting behavior*

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Only if embedded_H and H are ACTUALLY UTMs,

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*AS LONG AS 1 to ∞ steps of*
⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ correctly simulated by embedded_H cannot possibly reach their
own simulated final state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩
THEN *The input ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to embedded_H SPECIFIES non-halting behavior*

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And each of those is of a DIFFERENT input,

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Every element of the infinite set of embedded_H / ⟨Ĥ⟩ has this same
property

 But that property is a straw man, the question is does H^ (H^) Halt, or

*I will not discuss any other points with you until after you either*
(a) Acknowledge that DD correctly simulated by HH and ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ correctly
     simulated by embedded_H remain stuck in recursive simulation for
     1 to ∞ of correct simulation or
(b) Correctly prove otherwise.
*You already know that you can't possibly do that on the basis that*
DD correctly emulated by HH with an x86 emulator cannot possibly
reach past its own machine instruction [00001c2e] in any finite
number of steps of correct emulation.
_DD()
[00001c22] 55         push ebp
[00001c23] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[00001c25] 51         push ecx
[00001c26] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00001c29] 50         push eax        ; push DD 1c22
[00001c2a] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[00001c2d] 51         push ecx        ; push DD 1c22
[00001c2e] e80ff7ffff call 00001342   ; call HH
[00001c33] 83c408     add esp,+08
[00001c36] 8945fc     mov [ebp-04],eax
[00001c39] 837dfc00   cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
[00001c3d] 7402       jz 00001c41
[00001c3f] ebfe       jmp 00001c3f
[00001c41] 8b45fc     mov eax,[ebp-04]
[00001c44] 8be5       mov esp,ebp
[00001c46] 5d         pop ebp
[00001c47] c3         ret
Size in bytes:(0038) [00001c47]
--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer