Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller

On 7/8/25 10:59 AM, olcott wrote:

On 7/8/2025 3:10 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:

Op 07.jul.2025 om 15:23 schreef olcott:

On 7/7/2025 2:36 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:

Op 07.jul.2025 om 05:12 schreef olcott:

On 7/6/2025 9:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 7/6/25 4:06 PM, olcott wrote:

On 7/6/2025 12:00 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 7/6/25 11:19 AM, olcott wrote:

>
void DDD()
{
   HHH(DDD);
   return;
}
>
*EVERY BOT FIGURES THIS OUT ON ITS OWN*

>
No, it just isn't smart enough to detect that you lied in your premise.
>

There is no way that DDD simulated by HHH (according
to the semantics of the C programming language)
can possibly reach its own "return" statement final
halt state.

>
And there is no way for HHH to correctly simulate its input and return an answer
>

>
You insistence that a non-terminating input be simulated
until non-existent completion is especially nuts because
you have been told about this dozens of times.
>
What the F is wrong with you?
>

>
It seems you don't understand those words.
>
I don't say that the decider needs to simulate the input to completion, but that it needs to be able to actually PROVE that if this exact input WAS given to a correct simultor (which won't be itself, since it isn't doing the complete simulation) will run for an unbounded number of steps.
>

>
No decider is ever allowed to report on anything
besides the actual behavior that its input actually
specifies.
>

And HHH does not do that. The input specifies a halting program, because it includes the abort code.

>
>
void DDD()
{
   HHH(DDD);
   return;
}
>
_DDD()
[00002192] 55             push ebp
[00002193] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
[00002195] 6892210000     push 00002192  // push DDD
[0000219a] e833f4ffff     call 000015d2  // call HHH
[0000219f] 83c404         add esp,+04
[000021a2] 5d             pop ebp
[000021a3] c3             ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [000021a3]
>
That does have an effect on DDD emulated by HHH according
to the semantics of the x86 language stopping running.
It has no effect on this DDD every reaching its final halt
state. I have corrected your error on this too many times
you don't seem to want an honest dialogue.

>
As usual repeated claims without evidence.

 100% *complete proof is provided above*

No it isn't. as it is based on incorrect statements.

That you don't have sufficient technical
skill to see that this is complete proof
is not my mistake.

That you don't know

 

It is a pity that you ignore or do not understand the corrections that have been pointed out to you. Not understanding something is not stupid, but resistance against learning from errors is.
>

 DDD correctly simulated by HHH calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)...

Which doesn't actually happen exceot in your fantasy world.

 That you cannot see that this is the behavior
that the input to HHH(DDD) specifies is your
own lack of technical skill.

No, it shows your stupidity.
It isn't the pattern shown as what HHH does in your own traces, and thus it can't be the correct simulation of the HHH that HHH sees.

 *Maybe it is time to reveal credentials*
I have taken all but one of the courses
for a computer science degree and been a
C++ software engineer for two decades.
Mensa scored my IQ is in the top 3%.

In other words, you have NO degree in computer science, and at one time were smart.
What happened?
And I have an MASTERS degree in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science from the Massachussetts Institute of Technology, where I studied not only advanced programming techniques, but also how computers actually work.
I currently serve as a Cheif Engineer at the company I work for, and one of my resposibilities is mentoring the team of Software Engineers at the company. Most of the software that is produced is based on libraries that I have produced that maybe total somewhere need 100,000 lines of code.
Who trusts YOU to teach others?

 

We have pointed out already many times that this cannot be the whole input. At 0000219a there is a call to 000015d2 , but the code at 000015d2 is not specified.

 https://liarparadox.org/HHH(DDD)_Full_Trace.pdf
Because of the required cooperative multi-tasking
it is a little too difficult to see which the
actual trace.

Which isn't at all the trace of what HHH sees, but of what HHH does.
WHich proves that when DDD calls HHH, it WILL return to DDD if it is correctly simulated, and thus that DDD will halt when run,

 

We have to take it from another source, your Halt7.c. There we see that HHH is a function that returns with a value 0 with this input. So, a correct simulation will then continue at 0000219f

 DDD simulated by HHH according to the semantics of the x86
language cannot possibly ever get there even of your lack
of sufficient technical skill tells you so.

Only because HHH doesn't do a correct simulation.
The correct simulation of DDD is shown to halt, as you big trace shows, since main and DDD are identical (except for the address of the code) and the code of main is shown to return.

 *Feel free to dig through this full trace and see*
https://liarparadox.org/HHH(DDD)_Full_Trace.pdf

Right, which PROVES that DDD will halt, and that HHH doesn't do a correct simulation as it aborts its simulaiton.

 

with this value and even a beginner sees that the simulation will then reach a natural end.

 *DDD simulated by HHH NEVER REACHES ITS FINAL HALT STATE*
DDD correctly simulated by HHH calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
that simulates DDD that calls HHH(DDD)...

Which is an incorrect statement of what happens, it is just what happens in you fantasy world where HHH just fails to give an answer.
Sorry, that has been proven, and you are just too stupid to see your own lies because you have brainwashed yourself.

 

This is the full specification of the input.
This is also proven when exactly the same input is used in direct execution, or by world-class simulators, even by HHH1.
So, the following still holds:
>

>

But HHH gives up before it reaches that part of the specification and the final halt state.

If HHH does not see the full specification, it does not change the specification. It only illustrates the failure of the simulation to complete.
There is nothing wrong with aborting a simulation, because it is known that simulation is not always the correct tool to determine halting/ non- halting behaviour. In such cases other tools are needed to determine halting/non-halting behaviour.