Re: Infinite proofs do not derive knowledge --- Honest confusion ?

On 7/17/24 8:49 PM, olcott wrote:

On 7/17/2024 7:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 7/17/24 8:02 PM, olcott wrote:

On 7/16/2024 8:54 PM, olcott wrote:

On 7/16/2024 8:11 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 7/16/24 9:34 AM, olcott wrote:

On 7/16/2024 6:53 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 7/15/24 10:55 PM, olcott wrote:

On 7/15/2024 9:18 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 7/15/24 10:06 AM, olcott wrote:

On 7/15/2024 3:48 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-07-11 13:51:47 +0000, olcott said:
>

On 7/11/2024 2:07 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-07-10 13:58:42 +0000, olcott said:
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On 7/8/2024 7:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 7/8/24 8:28 PM, olcott wrote:

>
Every expression of language that cannot be proven
or refuted by any finite or infinite sequence of
truth preserving operations connecting it to its
meaning specified as a finite expression of language
is rejected.
>

>
So?
>
Tarski's x like Godel's G are know to be true by an infinite sequence of truth preserving operations.
>

>
Every time that you affirm your above error you prove
yourself to be a liar.

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It is quite obvious that you are the liar. You have not shown any error
above.
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Richard said the infinite proofs derive knowledge
and that infinite proofs never derive knowledge.

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That is included in my "not shown above", in particular the word "proofs".
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On 7/8/2024 7:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
 >
 > Tarski's x like Godel's G are know to be true by an
 > infinite sequence of truth preserving operations.
 >
>
We cannot know that anything is true by an infinite
sequence of truth preserving operations as Richard
falsely claims above.

>
You are just mixing up your words because you don't understd that wrores. amnd just making yourself into a LIAR.
>
Our KNOWLEDGE that the statement is true, comes from a finite proof in the meta system.

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Thus zero knowledge comes from the infinite proof
You spelled "known" incorrectly as "know" yet claimed
that knowledge comes form an infinite proof.
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You can't even pay attention to your own words ???
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There is no "infinite proof".
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On 7/8/2024 7:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
*know to be true*
*know to be true*
*know to be true*
*know to be true*
*know to be true*
by an infinite sequence of truth preserving operations.
>
Nothing can ever be known to be true
by an infinite sequence of truth preserving operations.
>

>
Right, you just don't parse it right because you don't understand english.
>
the "by" refers to the closer referent.
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it is KNOW TO BE
TRUE BY an infinite sequence of truth persevng operations.
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The infinite sequence establish what makes it True, not what make the truth known.
>

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In other words when you are caught with your hand in the
cookie jar stealing cookies you deny:
(a) That your hand is in the jar
(b) That there is a jar
(c) That there are any cookies
>
On 7/8/2024 7:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
 >
 > Tarski's x like Godel's G are know to be true by an
 > infinite sequence of truth preserving operations.
 >
>

>
*From immediately above* [somethings] are
know to be true by an infinite sequence of truth preserving operations.
>
Nothing is
known to be true by an infinite sequence of truth preserving operations.
>

>
But it is known to be (true by an infinite sequence of truth preserving operations)
>

 Some cases such as the Goldbach conjecture's truth or falsity may
require in infinite sequence of truth preserving operations as
their truthmaker. In these cases the truth or falsity remains
permanently unknown.
 

Unless there is a meta-theory that can be discovered that allows the infinite chain to be reduced to a finite proof.
But yes, if we can't find an appropriate meta-theory, and there is no finite sequence in normal math, then it might be true but unprovable.
The key point it that Godel's G, DOES have a proof in the meta-theory that was used to construct the relationship taken into PA, and thus in PA there is no finite proof, but the statement can be shown (via the Meta-Math) to be true in PA, so that shows that in PA there DOES exsit a statement that we KNOW to be true, and that truth is only established (in PA) by an infinite sequence of truth preserving instructions in PA, even though it can be establish by a finite sequence in MM (and thus proven in MM and the knowledge transfered to PA)