Sujet : Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --incorrect question instance--
De : richard (at) *nospam* damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Groupes : comp.theory sci.logicDate : 21. Mar 2024, 00:53:47
Autres entêtes
Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <utfpds$2gfnv$13@i2pn2.org>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 3/20/24 4:13 PM, olcott wrote:
On 3/20/2024 2:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 3/20/24 2:07 PM, olcott wrote:
<snip>
Since I defined the term "incorrect question" and I defined the
term "incorrect question instance" I cannot possibly have defined
them incorrectly. These are stipulative definitions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition
>
And by stipulating your definition, you havve disconnected it from any other use in the theory, in prticular, just because some question turns out to be an Olcott-Incorrect Question doesn't me it is an improper question to put to a decider to see if it meets its defintion.
>
Every Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ says Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts and fails to halt.
Every Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn says Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt and then halts.
Every Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ that answers YES is wrong.
Because for THAT H^, the answer is NO
Every Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ that answers NO is wrong.
Becaue for THAT DIFFERENT H^, the answer is YES
Therefore:
Does Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ halt? is an incorrect question instance when posed to Ĥ.H.
So, you assert that ALL deciders are correct decider for ANY QUESTION you give them, as if the answer they give is wrong, that is just an incorrect question for that decider.
It is logically impossible for Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to provide a correct answer
because every answer that Ĥ.H provides is contradicted.
Right, because the template generates a NEW QUESTION for every different H, and finds an input that it happes to get wrong.
If the inability to do the logically impossible was any actual
limitation then humans would be limited in that they cannot
correctly answer this question: What time is is (yes or no)?
But knowledge of what IS logically impossible is useful.
Yes, PROVING that Halt Deciding is impossible didn't change what could be computed, as you couldn't have done it even before it was proven.
But KNOW that this isn't computable help you understand that it isn't, so you don't try. Knowing that some things are uncomputable was a big step, as it meant people knwo better than to waste a lifetime looking for the way to do something that might not have been doable.
This seems to be something you don't understand about Stipulating your definitions.
>
>
An {incorrect question} is any question that has no correct answer.
What time is it (yes or no)? is an incorrect question.
>
So, by YOUR definitoin, the "Halting Question", namely the question, "Does the Computation described by this input Halt?" is not an {incorrect question}, as EVERY specific computation will either Halt or Not.
>
Once the incorrect question instances are tossed out then it is
a correct question.
ILLOGICAL.
The question was always "Correct" as it always had a correct answer for all cases.
All you have done is say that a decider can be considered Olcott-Correct even if it LIES and gives wrong answers, because those cases were just "incorrect question instances" for it.
Thus, you have destroyed the ability to gain knowledge by computing, as we can never know if the answer was right unless we can show that the decider did give the right answer, which is an uncomputable problem, so we can never know something we didn't already know the answer to.
>
An {incorrect question instance} is any question that has no
correct answer from the one that this question was posed to.
>
And, if the "one" that question was posed to, by reason of the "definition" of that "one" just doesn't give the correct answer, are you saying that is enough to make that question instance invalid?
>
When the only reason that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ fails to provide a correct
answer is that every answer is contradicted then these incorrect
question instances must be tossed out.
Excpet that now we can't tell which are those cases. As D could have been built on an "encrypted" copy of H which modified it in any of an infinite number of ways so we can't tell it was H, so we can't trust ANY answers, unless we knew the answer before hand.
This is the problem with this sort of logic, it devoles into nothing is knowable that didn't start easily knowable.
Date | Sujet | # | | Auteur |
15 Mar 24 | Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 467 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 23 | | immibis |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 22 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 10 | | Richard Damon |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 6 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 4 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 3 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 2 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 1 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 1 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 3 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 2 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 1 | | Richard Damon |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 11 | | immibis |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 10 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 9 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 8 | | Richard Damon |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 7 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 6 | | Richard Damon |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 5 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 4 | | Richard Damon |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 3 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 2 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 1 | | Richard Damon |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 440 | | Richard Damon |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 439 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 11 | | Richard Damon |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 10 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 3 | | immibis |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 2 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 1 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 6 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 5 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 3 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 1 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Obviously Olcott doesn't understand what his own words mean! | 1 | | immibis |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 1 | | immibis |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 427 | | immibis |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 425 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 39 | | immibis |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 5 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 3 | | olcott |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --timing error-- | 2 | | olcott |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --timing error-- | 1 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 1 | | immibis |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 29 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 19 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 18 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 17 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 9 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 8 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 7 | | immibis |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 6 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 2 | | immibis |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 1 | | olcott |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 3 | | olcott |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 1 | | Richard Damon |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 1 | | immibis |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 7 | | immibis |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 6 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 1 | | immibis |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 4 | | Richard Damon |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 3 | | olcott |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 1 | | immibis |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 1 | | Richard Damon |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 9 | | immibis |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 8 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 7 | | immibis |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 6 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 5 | | immibis |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 4 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 3 | | immibis |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 2 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 1 | | immibis |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 3 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 2 | | immibis |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --Categorically Exhaustive Reasoning-- | 1 | | olcott |
21 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria--Mikes-rebuttal-- | 1 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 385 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 384 | | olcott |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --mistake-- | 383 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --mistake-- | 382 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --mistake-- | 381 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --mistake-- | 363 | | olcott |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --mistake-- | 362 | | olcott |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --mistake-- | 361 | | Richard Damon |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 360 | | olcott |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 25 | | immibis |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 24 | | olcott |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 16 | | Richard Damon |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 15 | | olcott |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 14 | | Richard Damon |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 13 | | olcott |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 12 | | Richard Damon |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 11 | | olcott |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 9 | | Richard Damon |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 8 | | olcott |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 7 | | Richard Damon |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 6 | | olcott |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 5 | | Richard Damon |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 4 | | olcott |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 1 | | immibis |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 7 | | immibis |
17 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth-- | 334 | | Richard Damon |
16 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --mistake-- | 17 | | immibis |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria | 1 | | Richard Damon |
15 Mar 24 | Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --moved dialogue-- | 3 | | olcott |