Re: Is Richard a Liar?

Liste des GroupesRevenir à s logic 
Sujet : Re: Is Richard a Liar?
De : polcott333 (at) *nospam* gmail.com (olcott)
Groupes : comp.theory sci.logic
Date : 14. May 2024, 20:40:31
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <v20b6v$akk9$1@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 5/14/2024 1:30 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 14.mei.2024 om 19:52 schreef olcott:
On 5/14/2024 12:49 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 14.mei.2024 om 19:14 schreef olcott:
On 5/14/2024 11:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 14.mei.2024 om 17:45 schreef olcott:
On 5/14/2024 10:42 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 14.mei.2024 om 17:30 schreef olcott:
On 5/14/2024 10:08 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
[ Followup-To: set ]
>
In comp.theory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
On 5/14/2024 4:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-05-12 15:58:02 +0000, olcott said:
>
On 5/12/2024 10:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-05-12 11:34:17 +0000, Richard Damon said:
>
On 5/12/24 5:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2024-05-11 16:26:30 +0000, olcott said:
>
I am working on providing an academic quality definition of this
term.
>
The definition in Wikipedia is good enough.
>
>
I think he means, he is working on a definition that redefines the
field to allow him to claim what he wants.
>
Here one can claim whatever one wants anysay.
In if one wants to present ones claims on some significant forum then
it is better to stick to usual definitions as much as possible.
>
Sort of like his new definition of H as an "unconventional" machine
that some how both returns an answer but also keeps on running.
>
There are systems where that is possible but unsolvable problems are
unsolvable even in those systems.
>
>
When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>
This notation does not work with machines that can, or have parts
that can, return a value without (or before) termination.
>
>
>
00 int H(ptr x, ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
01 int D(ptr x)
02 {
03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
04   if (Halt_Status)
05     HERE: goto HERE;
06   return Halt_Status;
07 }
08
09 int main()
10 {
11   H(D,D);
12 }
>
In any case you diverged away form the whole point of this thread.
Richard is wrong when he says that there exists an H/D pair such
that D simulated by H ever reaches past its own line 03.
>
Yes, in the same way that you are wrong.  The above "C code" is garbage;
as already pointed out, it doesn't even compile.  So any talk of
"reaching line 3" or "matching" that "code" is vacuous nonsense.
>
>
Any H/D pair matching the above template where D(D) is simulated
by the same H(D,D) that it calls cannot possibly reach past its own
line 03. Simple software engineering verified fact.
>
Since nobody knows who has verified this fact en there have been counter examples,
>
*See if you can show that your claim of counter-examples is not a lie*
*See if you can show that your claim of counter-examples is not a lie*
*See if you can show that your claim of counter-examples is not a lie*
>
>
>
*YOU SKIPPED THE CHALLENGE TO YOUR ASSERTION*
IS THAT BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT IS FALSE?
>
*YOU SKIPPED THE CHALLENGE TO YOUR ASSERTION*
IS THAT BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT IS FALSE?
>
*YOU SKIPPED THE CHALLENGE TO YOUR ASSERTION*
IS THAT BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT IS FALSE?
>
Olcott is trying to stay at this point for several weeks now, but he does not succeed. The reason probably is, that it is already a few steps too far. First there must be agreement about the words and terms used in what he says. So, we should delay this subject and go back a few steps.
Before we can talk about this, first there must be 100% agreement about:
>
1) What is a "verified fact"? Who needs to do the verification before it can be said that it is a verified fact?
>
I am ONLY referring to expressions that are PROVEN
to be {true entirely on the basis of their meaning}.
>
*CONCRETE EXAMPLES*
How do we know that 2 + 3 = 5?
>
If needed we can write out the proof for this, starting from the axioms for natural numbers. That proof is well known.
>
But nobody here knows the proof for your assertion above, that it is a verified fact that it cannot reach past line 03. So, we would like to see that proof. Just the claim that it has been proven is not enough.
>
>
The "nobody here" you are referring to must be clueless
about the semantics of the C programming language.
>
 Are you honest? Please, give the proof, instead of keeping away from it.
I have been an expert C/C++ programmer for decades.
If you knew C will enough yourself you would comprehend
that my claim about:
Any H/D pair matching the above template where
D(D) is simulated by the same H(D,D) that it calls
cannot possibly reach past its own line 03.
This is a simple software engineering verified fact.
My grandfather was a diagnostician and pathologist
said: "You can't argue with ignorance".

You give the impression that you are clueless about how to prove it. The only evidence you gave, are the personal attacks to people who ask for it, which does not convince anybody.
It is your claim. You have the burden of the proof.
We need to be 100% sure before we can proceed to the next step.
--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Date Sujet#  Auteur
5 May 24 * Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H409olcott
5 May 24 +* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H60Richard Damon
5 May 24 i+* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H2olcott
5 May 24 ii`- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H1Richard Damon
5 May 24 i+* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H39olcott
5 May 24 ii`* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H38Richard Damon
5 May 24 ii +* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H14olcott
5 May 24 ii i`* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H13Richard Damon
6 May 24 ii i `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H12olcott
6 May 24 ii i  `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H11Richard Damon
6 May 24 ii i   +* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H4olcott
6 May 24 ii i   i`* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H3Richard Damon
6 May 24 ii i   i `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H2olcott
6 May 24 ii i   i  `- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H1Richard Damon
6 May 24 ii i   `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H6olcott
6 May 24 ii i    `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H5Richard Damon
6 May 24 ii i     `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H4olcott
6 May 24 ii i      `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H3Richard Damon
6 May 24 ii i       `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H2olcott
7 May 24 ii i        `- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H1Richard Damon
6 May 24 ii `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H23olcott
6 May 24 ii  +- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H --- typo1olcott
6 May 24 ii  `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H21Richard Damon
6 May 24 ii   +* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H10olcott
6 May 24 ii   i`* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H9Richard Damon
6 May 24 ii   i +* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H2olcott
6 May 24 ii   i i`- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H1Richard Damon
6 May 24 ii   i `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H6olcott
6 May 24 ii   i  `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H5Richard Damon
6 May 24 ii   i   `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H4olcott
6 May 24 ii   i    `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H3Richard Damon
6 May 24 ii   i     `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H2olcott
7 May 24 ii   i      `- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H1Richard Damon
6 May 24 ii   +* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H4olcott
6 May 24 ii   i`* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H3Richard Damon
6 May 24 ii   i `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H2olcott
6 May 24 ii   i  `- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H1Richard Damon
6 May 24 ii   `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H6olcott
6 May 24 ii    `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H5Richard Damon
6 May 24 ii     `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ---4olcott
6 May 24 ii      `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ---3Richard Damon
6 May 24 ii       `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ---2olcott
7 May 24 ii        `- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ---1Richard Damon
5 May 24 i`* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H18olcott
5 May 24 i +* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H3Richard Damon
5 May 24 i i`* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H2olcott
6 May 24 i i `- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H1Richard Damon
7 May 24 i `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H14immibis
7 May 24 i  `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H +++13olcott
7 May 24 i   +* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H +++10Richard Damon
7 May 24 i   i+* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H +++8olcott
7 May 24 i   ii`* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H +++7Richard Damon
7 May 24 i   ii `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H +++6olcott
7 May 24 i   ii  `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H +++5Richard Damon
7 May 24 i   ii   `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H +++4olcott
7 May 24 i   ii    `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H +++3Richard Damon
7 May 24 i   ii     `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H +++2olcott
8 May 24 i   ii      `- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H +++1Richard Damon
9 May 24 i   i`- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H +++1immibis
9 May 24 i   `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H +++2immibis
9 May 24 i    `- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@1olcott
6 May 24 +* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H347olcott
7 May 24 i+* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H47Richard Damon
7 May 24 ii`* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===46olcott
7 May 24 ii `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===45Richard Damon
7 May 24 ii  `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===44olcott
7 May 24 ii   `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===43Richard Damon
7 May 24 ii    `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===42olcott
7 May 24 ii     +* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===40Richard Damon
7 May 24 ii     i`* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===39olcott
7 May 24 ii     i `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===38Richard Damon
7 May 24 ii     i  +* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===6olcott
8 May 24 ii     i  i`* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===5Richard Damon
8 May 24 ii     i  i `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===4olcott
8 May 24 ii     i  i  `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===3Richard Damon
8 May 24 ii     i  i   `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===2olcott
8 May 24 ii     i  i    `- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===1Richard Damon
7 May 24 ii     i  `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===31olcott
8 May 24 ii     i   `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===30Richard Damon
8 May 24 ii     i    +* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===25olcott
8 May 24 ii     i    i`* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===24Richard Damon
8 May 24 ii     i    i `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===23olcott
8 May 24 ii     i    i  `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===22Richard Damon
8 May 24 ii     i    i   `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@21olcott
8 May 24 ii     i    i    +* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@11olcott
8 May 24 ii     i    i    i`* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@10Richard Damon
8 May 24 ii     i    i    i `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@9olcott
9 May 24 ii     i    i    i  `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@8Richard Damon
9 May 24 ii     i    i    i   +* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@2olcott
9 May 24 ii     i    i    i   i`- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@1Richard Damon
9 May 24 ii     i    i    i   +* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@2olcott
9 May 24 ii     i    i    i   i`- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@1Richard Damon
9 May 24 ii     i    i    i   `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@3olcott
9 May 24 ii     i    i    i    `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@2Richard Damon
9 May 24 ii     i    i    i     `- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@1joes
8 May 24 ii     i    i    `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@9Richard Damon
8 May 24 ii     i    i     `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@8olcott
8 May 24 ii     i    i      +* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@2wij
9 May 24 ii     i    i      i`- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@1Richard Damon
9 May 24 ii     i    i      `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@5Richard Damon
9 May 24 ii     i    i       `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H @@@4olcott
8 May 24 ii     i    +* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===2olcott
8 May 24 ii     i    `* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===2olcott
9 May 24 ii     `- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ===1immibis
7 May 24 i+* Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H298olcott
7 May 24 i`- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H1olcott
7 May 24 `- Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H1immibis

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