Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method

Liste des GroupesRevenir à s logic 
Sujet : Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method
De : polcott333 (at) *nospam* gmail.com (olcott)
Groupes : sci.logic comp.theory
Date : 16. May 2024, 15:59:32
Autres entêtes
Organisation : A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID : <v253g6$1jo3l$1@dont-email.me>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird
On 5/16/2024 6:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/16/24 12:44 AM, olcott wrote:
On 5/15/2024 9:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/15/24 10:17 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/15/2024 9:07 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/15/24 9:57 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/13/2024 9:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/13/24 10:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>
Remember, p defined as ~True(L, p) is BY DEFINITION a truth bearer, as True must return a Truth Value for all inputs, and ~ a truth valus is always the other truth value.
>
>
Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied to expressions
that are stipulated to be true derive p?
>
On 5/15/2024 8:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
 > Which has NOTHING to do with the problem with True(L, p)
 > being true when p is defined in L as ~True(L, p)
>
*YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT True(L, p) IS FALSE*
>
No, I said that because there is not path to p, it would need to be false, but that was based on the assumption that it could exist.
>
>
No, so True(L, p) is false
and thus ~True(L, p) is true.
>
>
Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied to expressions
that are stipulated to be true derive ~p?
>
>
On 5/15/2024 7:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
 > Which has NOTHING to do with the above,
 > as we never refered to False(L,p).
>
*YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT false(L, p) IS FALSE*
>
Right, but that has nothing to do with the problem with True(L, p) being false, because, since p in L is ~True(L, p) so that make True(L, ~false) which is True(L, true) false, which is incorrrect.
>
>
No, so False(L, p) is false,
>
>
Please try and keep these two thoughts together at the same time
*I need to make another point that depends on both of them*
>
*YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT True(L, p) IS FALSE*
*YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT false(L, p) IS FALSE*
>
>
>
right, by your definitions, True(L, p) is False, but that means that True(L, true) is false, so your system is broken.
>
>
You understand that True(English, "a fish") is false
and you understand that False(English, "a fish") is false
and you understand this means that "a fish" is neither True
nor false in English.
>
You understand that the actual Liar Paradox is neither true
nor false *THIS IS MUCH MUCH BETTER THAN MOST PEOPLE: Good Job*
>
  True(English, "This sentence is not true") is false
False(English, "This sentence is not true") is false
Is saying the same thing that you already know.
>
You get stuck when we formalize: "This sentence is not true"
as "p defined as ~True(L, p)", yet the formalized sentence has
the exact same semantics as the English one.
>
>
No, YOU get stuck when you can't figure out how to make True(L, p) with p defined in L as ~True(L, p) work. If it IS false, then the resulting comclusion is that True(L, true) is false, whicn means your system is broken.
>
>
  True(L, true) is false
False(L, true) is false
>
This is the Truth Teller Paradox
and is rejected as not a truth bearer.
>
  No True(L, true) must be TRUE by definiition.
We could say that "kittens are fifteen story office buildings"
is true by definition and we would be wrong.
"True(L, true)" lacks a truth object that it is true about.
A sentence cannot correctly be true about being true...
It has to be true about something other than itself.
"This sentence has five words."
Is true about the number of words that it has.
True(English, "This sentence has five words.") is true
"a sentence may fail to make a statement if it is
paradoxical or ungrounded."
*Outline of a Theory of Truth --- Saul Kripke*
https://www.impan.pl/~kz/truthseminar/Kripke_Outline.pdf
*The grounding of a truth-bearer to its truthmaker*
True(L,x) returns true when x is derived from a set of truth preserving
operations from finite string expressions of language that have been
stipulated to have the semantic value of Boolean true. False(L,x) is
defined as True(L,~x). Copyright 2022,2023,2024 PL Olcott

The value of the value true IS true.
 true is the logic value of statement tmentrs.
 "This statment is true" is the truth teller paradox, not the logic value true.
 
"This sentence is true"
is correctly formalized as TT is defined as True(TT)
"This sentence is true"
What is it true about?
It is true about being true.
What is it true about being true about?
It true about being true about being true...

This goes back to the ambiguity of trying to discuss logic with words.
--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Date Sujet#  Auteur
11 May 24 * True on the basis of meaning209olcott
11 May 24 `* Re: True on the basis of meaning208Richard Damon
11 May 24  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning207olcott
11 May 24   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning206Richard Damon
11 May 24    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning205olcott
11 May 24     +- Re: True on the basis of meaning1Richard Damon
12 May 24     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning203Mikko
12 May 24      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning202olcott
12 May 24       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning201Mikko
12 May 24        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning200olcott
12 May 24         +* Re: True on the basis of meaning183Richard Damon
12 May 24         i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning182olcott
12 May 24         i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning181Richard Damon
12 May 24         i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning180olcott
12 May 24         i   +* Re: True on the basis of meaning163Richard Damon
12 May 24         i   i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning162olcott
13 May 24         i   i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning161Richard Damon
13 May 24         i   i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning160olcott
13 May 24         i   i   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning159Richard Damon
13 May 24         i   i    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning158olcott
13 May 24         i   i     +* Re: True on the basis of meaning2olcott
13 May 24         i   i     i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning1Richard Damon
13 May 24         i   i     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning155Richard Damon
13 May 24         i   i      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning154olcott
13 May 24         i   i       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning153Richard Damon
13 May 24         i   i        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning152olcott
13 May 24         i   i         `* Re: True on the basis of meaning151Richard Damon
13 May 24         i   i          `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !150olcott
14 May 24         i   i           `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !149Richard Damon
14 May 24         i   i            +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !2olcott
14 May 24         i   i            i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !1Richard Damon
14 May 24         i   i            `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method146olcott
14 May 24         i   i             `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method145Richard Damon
14 May 24         i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
14 May 24         i   i              i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
14 May 24         i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method4olcott
14 May 24         i   i              i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method3Richard Damon
14 May 24         i   i              i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
15 May 24         i   i              i  `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
15 May 24         i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
15 May 24         i   i              i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
15 May 24         i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method4olcott
15 May 24         i   i              i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method3Richard Damon
15 May 24         i   i              i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
16 May 24         i   i              i  `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
16 May 24         i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method4olcott
16 May 24         i   i              i+- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
16 May 24         i   i              i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2immibis
16 May 24         i   i              i `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1olcott
16 May 24         i   i              +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
16 May 24         i   i              i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
16 May 24         i   i              `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method126olcott
16 May 24         i   i               `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method125Richard Damon
16 May 24         i   i                `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method124olcott
16 May 24         i   i                 `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method123Richard Damon
16 May 24         i   i                  +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
16 May 24         i   i                  i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
16 May 24         i   i                  +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method5olcott
16 May 24         i   i                  i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method4Richard Damon
16 May 24         i   i                  i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method3olcott
17 May 24         i   i                  i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2Richard Damon
17 May 24         i   i                  i   `- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1olcott
16 May 24         i   i                  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method115olcott
16 May 24         i   i                   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method114Richard Damon
16 May 24         i   i                    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method113olcott
17 May 24         i   i                     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method112Richard Damon
17 May 24         i   i                      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method111olcott
17 May 24         i   i                       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method110Richard Damon
17 May 24         i   i                        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method109olcott
17 May 24         i   i                         `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method108Richard Damon
17 May 24         i   i                          +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method105olcott
17 May 24         i   i                          i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method104Richard Damon
17 May 24         i   i                          i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method103olcott
18 May 24         i   i                          i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method102Richard Damon
18 May 24         i   i                          i   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method101olcott
18 May 24         i   i                          i    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method100Richard Damon
18 May 24         i   i                          i     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method99olcott
18 May 24         i   i                          i      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method98Richard Damon
18 May 24         i   i                          i       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method97olcott
18 May 24         i   i                          i        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method96Richard Damon
18 May 24         i   i                          i         `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method95olcott
18 May 24         i   i                          i          `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method94Richard Damon
18 May 24         i   i                          i           `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method93olcott
18 May 24         i   i                          i            `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method92Richard Damon
18 May 24         i   i                          i             `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method91olcott
18 May 24         i   i                          i              `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method90Richard Damon
18 May 24         i   i                          i               +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
18 May 24         i   i                          i               i`- Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method1Richard Damon
18 May 24         i   i                          i               `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method87olcott
18 May 24         i   i                          i                `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method86Richard Damon
18 May 24         i   i                          i                 `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method85olcott
19 May 24         i   i                          i                  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method84Richard Damon
19 May 24         i   i                          i                   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method83olcott
19 May 24         i   i                          i                    `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method82Richard Damon
19 May 24         i   i                          i                     `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method81olcott
19 May 24         i   i                          i                      `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method80Richard Damon
19 May 24         i   i                          i                       `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method79olcott
19 May 24         i   i                          i                        +* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method63Mikko
19 May 24         i   i                          i                        i`* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method62olcott
20 May 24         i   i                          i                        i `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method61Mikko
20 May 24         i   i                          i                        i  `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method60olcott
19 May 24         i   i                          i                        `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method15Richard Damon
17 May 24         i   i                          `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method2olcott
13 May 24         i   `* Re: True on the basis of meaning16Mikko
13 May 24         `* Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Tarski16olcott

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