Newsportal USENET - Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method

Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method

Sujet : Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method
De : richard (at) *nospam* damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Groupes : sci.logic comp.theory
Date : 17. May 2024, 04:54:51

Autres entêtes

Organisation : i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID : <v26gtr$18ad7$13@i2pn2.org>
References : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33
User-Agent : Mozilla Thunderbird

On 5/16/24 10:44 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/16/2024 9:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/16/24 9:59 AM, olcott wrote:
On 5/16/2024 6:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/16/24 12:44 AM, olcott wrote:
On 5/15/2024 9:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/15/24 10:17 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/15/2024 9:07 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/15/24 9:57 PM, olcott wrote:
On 5/13/2024 9:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
On 5/13/24 10:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>
Remember, p defined as ~True(L, p) is BY DEFINITION a truth bearer, as True must return a Truth Value for all inputs, and ~ a truth valus is always the other truth value.
>
>
Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied to expressions
that are stipulated to be true derive p?
>
On 5/15/2024 8:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> Which has NOTHING to do with the problem with True(L, p)
> being true when p is defined in L as ~True(L, p)
>
*YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT True(L, p) IS FALSE*
>
No, I said that because there is not path to p, it would need to be false, but that was based on the assumption that it could exist.
>
>
No, so True(L, p) is false
and thus ~True(L, p) is true.
>
>
Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied to expressions
that are stipulated to be true derive ~p?
>
>
On 5/15/2024 7:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> Which has NOTHING to do with the above,
> as we never refered to False(L,p).
>
*YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT false(L, p) IS FALSE*
>
Right, but that has nothing to do with the problem with True(L, p) being false, because, since p in L is ~True(L, p) so that make True(L, ~false) which is True(L, true) false, which is incorrrect.
>
>
No, so False(L, p) is false,
>
>
Please try and keep these two thoughts together at the same time
*I need to make another point that depends on both of them*
>
*YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT True(L, p) IS FALSE*
*YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT false(L, p) IS FALSE*
>
>
>
right, by your definitions, True(L, p) is False, but that means that True(L, true) is false, so your system is broken.
>
>
You understand that True(English, "a fish") is false
and you understand that False(English, "a fish") is false
and you understand this means that "a fish" is neither True
nor false in English.
>
You understand that the actual Liar Paradox is neither true
nor false *THIS IS MUCH MUCH BETTER THAN MOST PEOPLE: Good Job*
>
True(English, "This sentence is not true") is false
False(English, "This sentence is not true") is false
Is saying the same thing that you already know.
>
You get stuck when we formalize: "This sentence is not true"
as "p defined as ~True(L, p)", yet the formalized sentence has
the exact same semantics as the English one.
>
>
No, YOU get stuck when you can't figure out how to make True(L, p) with p defined in L as ~True(L, p) work. If it IS false, then the resulting comclusion is that True(L, true) is false, whicn means your system is broken.
>
>
True(L, true) is false
False(L, true) is false
>
This is the Truth Teller Paradox
and is rejected as not a truth bearer.
>
>
>
No True(L, true) must be TRUE by definiition.
>
We could say that "kittens are fifteen story office buildings"
is true by definition and we would be wrong.
>
But the fundamental definition of true makes it true.
*True by definition must actually be true*
*True by definition must actually be true*
*True by definition must actually be true*

So why did you argue that True(L, true) shouldn't be just true?
Aren't you just being inconsistant now

>
"True(L, true)" lacks a truth object that it is true about.
A sentence cannot correctly be true about being true...
It has to be true about something other than itself.
>
true IS the fundamental truth object.
>
*No it is not, it is the result of this algorithm*
*No it is not, it is the result of this algorithm*
*No it is not, it is the result of this algorithm*

No, it is the VALUE of the result of this algorithm, which, BY DEFINITION, is a truth value.

*The grounding of a truth-bearer to its truthmaker*
True(L,x) returns true when x is derived from a set of truth preserving operations from finite string expressions of language that have been stipulated to have the semantic value of Boolean true. False(L,x) is defined as True(L,~x). Copyright 2022 PL Olcott

Which, by your claim makes True(L, p) false, but that makes p to be defined as ~false, which is true, so you are claiming True(L, true) can be false.

It isn't a "sentence" it is a truth value.
>
You are just showing you don't actually understand how logic works.
>
>
"This sentence has five words."
Is true about the number of words that it has.
True(English, "This sentence has five words.") is true
>
"a sentence may fail to make a statement if it is
paradoxical or ungrounded."
>
>
So, you thing truth is just paradoxical or ungrounded?
>
That is how Kripke defined not a truth-bearer.
I specified what grounding means above and previously.
*Outline of a Theory of Truth --- Saul Kripke*
https://www.impan.pl/~kz/truthseminar/Kripke_Outline.pdf

So, are you agreeing that True(L, true) needs to be true?
and thus can't be false?
and thus True(L, p) where p is a statement that is true must be true, and not false.
Even if you first said it must be false?
And thus your system is shown inconsistant!!
You need to resolve this or I will be able to just remind you that you have asserted conditions that make your logic inconsistant and can't refute the logic that shows that.

Les messages affichés proviennent d'usenet.

Date	Sujet	#	Auteur
11 May 24	True on the basis of meaning	209	olcott
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	208	Richard Damon
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	207	olcott
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	206	Richard Damon
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	205	olcott
11 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	1	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	203	Mikko
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	202	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	201	Mikko
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	200	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	183	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	182	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	181	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	180	olcott
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	163	Richard Damon
12 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	162	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	161	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	160	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	159	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	158	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	2	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	1	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	155	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	154	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	153	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	152	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	151	Richard Damon
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	150	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	149	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	2	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard !	1	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	146	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	145	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	olcott
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	Richard Damon
14 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	olcott
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	Richard Damon
15 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	immibis
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	126	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	125	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	124	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	123	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	5	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	4	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	3	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	115	olcott
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	114	Richard Damon
16 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	113	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	112	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	111	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	110	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	109	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	108	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	105	olcott
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	104	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	103	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	102	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	101	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	100	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	99	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	98	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	97	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	96	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	95	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	94	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	93	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	92	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	91	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	90	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	1	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	87	olcott
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	86	Richard Damon
18 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	85	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	84	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	83	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	82	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	81	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	80	Richard Damon
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	79	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	63	Mikko
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	62	olcott
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	61	Mikko
20 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	60	olcott
19 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	15	Richard Damon
17 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic method	2	olcott
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning	16	Mikko
13 May 24	Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Tarski	16	olcott